Women Men Work Place Inequities 13

[kontiki99]

I favor equal opportunity non-discriminatory work place practices. I’m fine with breast feeding rooms. I’m happy to see people going off and having babies.

But, I do believe our culture over looks many bizarre inequities where men are not afforded the same flexibilities extended to women.

I want to highlight a couple, any body know of more?


Minor Issue #1 –

Foot wear at work.

I’m a male engineer. I wear shoes to work every day.

I see women wearing all manner of flip flop (any shoe that makes a flip-flip sound when you walk), bedroom slippers, open toed things, plus some of the weirdest heel geometries I have ever seem.

I’d like to come in open toed flip flops or maybe bedroom slippers, but I’d really be dressed unprofessionally.



Minor Issue #2 -

As a male I cannot post photos of attractive women in swim suits in my cube without the fear of someone claiming that it’s inappropriate.

At a previous job, one of the IT managers apparently did most of his recruiting down the gold club or something because all of the people in his department had great figures and tended to dress somewhat provocatively.

They wall papered their cube with photos of them selves and their friends at pool parties and such. It was just fine.

If I had borrowed some of those photos and put them in my cube I’d have definitely been reprimanded.

My point -

I learned in the Marine Corps that there is always the 10 % group of people that just don’t cut it. The same goes for both genders.

I actually witnessed this first hand as a Civil Service engineer (20 yrs later) while on a shake down cruise on one of our fighting love boats 20.

I’d like to see female professionalism in the workplace enforced as uniformly for women as it is for men.

 

[MedicineEng]

I usually dress quite casually at work (jeans, T-shirt or polo shirt and safety shoes). This is good because Ilive in a sub tropical climate and working with something heavier than this is already painful.
Nevertheless, when we have an important visit or an important dinner, I wear suit, not because someone asked but because I feel I should wear one. Even if much more unconfortable.
It all goes with common sense. If common sense has a normal distribution, it means that at least 5% of the population doesn't have it have very little. These are the ones that dress strange.

 

[Ussuri]

I have always dressed to suit my position. In my last job I worked for a Consultant in a design office. The client could turn up un-announced, have a random meeting etc, so I always wore shirt, tie, and trousers.

In my current position I am a calc monkey. I sit in the 'dungeon' at the far rear of the building, below ground level. We are never invited to client meetings because we are doing work for project managers internally so they go. Senior management never comes anywhere near us. Hence I am happy enough to come to work in jeans and a t-shirt.

If the situtation changes, and smarter attire is needed I will dress appropriately, but at the moment no-one would see my smart appearance so I dont bother.

 

[boffintech]

Ussuri wrote, "I have always dressed to suit my position.....In my current position I am a calc monkey."

Those statements are certainly an eye opener and easily prove the rule that I live by. If you want to remain a "calc monkey" keep dressing like one and no one will inadvertently mistake for anything else, like a decision or rain maker. I practice and teach a philosophy of "dress for the position that you want NOT the position that you have". Unless of course you have zero ambition or have become a total burnout like lostsailor.

 

[lostsailor]

boffin,
I'm not a burnout, I'm a realist, as are my clients, most of whom I've been working with on a continual basis for over ten years. My corporate management recognizes the fact that I keep my clients happy and the money rolling in. So long as this situation continues I suspect they're not going to push issues like dress codes and the "company image". It's been my experience that providing quality service and profitablity brings a level of professionalism and credibility that goes somewhat beyond what you call a "philosophy". I can only hope that, in addition to dressing for success, you also practice and teach something substantive. I've managed to earn the respect of my clients
and employer for what I do, on my own terms. Can you say the same? See you around the water cooler.
Regards,
RLS

 

[Ussuri]

I would not say I have no ambition, although at the moment climbing the corporate ladder is not really high on my list. At my last position I was the client contact, reponsible for managing the projects and the team and ensuring the company made a profit at the end. I was not doing much technical work, and I missed that as a Professional Engineer.

My current role is the complete opposite and I feel that if I wore a suit in my current position I would be overdressed to the point of being silly. Its the same as a man that turns up on a muddy wet construction site, in october, in a pressed suit and pair of shiny loafers, and with no PPE. He maybe wants to look like the MD of the company (the next position he wants) but in the circumstances just looks like a plonker. The respect from your colleagues suffers.

 

[boffintech]

What you wear for a particular audience tells the audience a lot about how much you do or do not respect them. Dressing down tells a client, "I have no respect for you and I have demonstrated that fact by expending zero effort on my appearance before you today. I could just as easily be mowing the grass as looking at you. So what's the next high-paying job our company, whose image, by the way, means nothing to me, can do for you."

In my dept I diligently work to identifying those that share your attitude of "the company image means nothing to me" so that they can be eliminated at the earliest possible moment. Ever heard of loyalty? Geeez...

 

[lostsailor]

Loyalty? Surely you jest? Glad to see you're diligent about something besides the dress code.
Regards,
RLS

 

[boffintech]

Don't call me Shirley.

 

[EddyC]

Its business casual (polo shirt, khakis, shoes) where I work. When going to an important office meeting however, we do usually put on the suit. If we are on site visits where we will be potentially getting dirty, we switch the khakis & shoes for jeans & work boots. The female staff do tend to dress more formal than the male staff usually here.

 

[kontiki99]

As cognizant engineer for my systems, I am this companies representative for events and industry activities in my technical area. In addition to cranking out aircraft modification paperwork, I consider that the company hired me to represent them . It's part of the job.

I have received many free meals, paid for by vendors. At conventions I am invited to hospitality suites to look at new products and enjoy free food and drink. I have been handed hundreds of goofy pocket trinkets.

It's not because aerospace sales people really enjoy my company. If stopped working, I would be invited to very few lunches and technical demonstrations.

When I'm at those functions, I am hard at work too. I’m careful about what I say and that I don’t disclose sensitive strategy or pricing information. I study all relevant vendor demonstrations and vendors thoroughly.

Usually, I’m at it until long after I have liked to go back to the room and call it a night.

That’s why it’s so much more interesting to be an engineer than a mechanic in this business.

 

[Senselessticker]

I find it interesting that so many folks seem to be offended by the style of dress in the workplace. The thing is….it is a matter of choice for each individual. When I have a big meeting with a client, I dress for the part. Today, I’m wearing sandals and jeans (very few people in the office and certainly no clients due to the holiday tomorrow). I’m over the dress code discussion…

Getting back to inequities in the work place… I’m going to play devil’s advocate concerning companies being more flexible with woman. (Because I do not think it’s true that women receive additional flexability)

Scenario A:
Women (please note that I am generalizing) tend to miss more work due to medical reasons (women simply require more maintenance than men to keep the mind and body running smooth when comparing an equally healthy man/woman). Companies tend to be tolerant of this fact and extend flexibility to women such that there is no discrimination even though John A. Doe spent 2 days on sick leave last year and Jane A. Doe spent 8. The tolerance is extended not because Jane is a woman, but because she is a valuable member of the company who brings special skills to the table when considering her place within the team circle. John and Jane each are treated equally when considering pay raises and promotions.

Scenario B:
John B. Doe is obese (due to poor personal habits) and is out for 8 weeks on disability due to “back problems” associated with carrying around an extra 100 lbs. The company is obligated to extend flexibility to John B. Doe because he is a valuable member of the company who brings special skills to the table for the entire team. Jane B. Doe, on the other hand, is out for the same 8 weeks caring for herself and a newborn child. Upon both Jane and John returning to work, each are extended the same flexibility. John and Jane each are treated equally when considering pay raises and promotions.

In scenario B, John has been given special treatment over Jane. Jane’s absence from work was due to natural reasons. She is not responsible for letting the team down. John, on the other hand, could have avoided the missed work if he was more responsible with his body and personal habits. John let the team down (as well as drove up medical insurance premiums for rest of us).

Unfortunately, corporate America usually doesn’t see this kind of discrimination.

 

[EddyC]

senselessticker,

What makes you think that "obese" John Doe's "extra" 100-lbs is not his natural state? Are you his Doctor? Almost all people out there have some kind of personal limitations that affect their ability to do various kinds of work. I would appaud any employer who chooses to see the bigger picture and makes an effort to accomodate an otherwise good employee's limitations.

 

[ivymike]

John, on the other hand, could have avoided the missed work if he was more responsible with his body and personal habits.

Whew, good thing senseless doesn't run the world! I'd have to:
* ride the bus (safer than driving)
* give up skiing (too dangerous)
* give up wakeboarding (ditto)
* give up skateboarding (ditto)
* give up mountain biking (ditto)
* give up racquetball (ditto)
* give up running (too hard on the knees)
* give up child rearing (as a male, it would be unnatural for me to want to leave work early or take days off for parenting - that sort of thing is rightly reserved for female employees, correct?)

Heck, after I gave up nearly everything I consider fun (to help keep the team running), I might have a hard time not putting on those extra 100 lbs, and I might be a real bastard to deal with around the office (no stress relief)!

 

[Senselessticker]

The "obese" issue is arbitrary. The point is that John is making poor choices which in turn slows the team down, cost the company $$$, and therefore jeopardizes the welfare of his co-workers and their respective family. John is not taking responsibility for himself, his family, or his colleagues. He is the weakest link because he “chooses” an irresponsible lifestyle. The example could be drugs, alcohol, crime, or some other lifestyle which he made a choice to participate in. My point is that John B. Doe should not be extended the same flexibility/reward as Jane B. because he is not playing as team member.

 

[ivymike]

Having children is also a lifestyle choice (for now, anyway - there are some fringe efforts afoot to eventually outlaw intentional childlessness in the US).

 

[kchayfie]

There has to be some degree of inequality when it comes to the lifestyle choice of parenthood. No matter how flexible a company chooses to be (or not be) over childcare arrangements and maternity/paternity rights, a man will get over the physical effects of the birth of his child much quicker than a woman will. So giving men the right to take several weeks off could be argued as a perk he doesn't need, whereas a new mother would need that time. On the other hand, not giving him time off to spend with his new baby could equally be argued to be unfair.

 

[Senselessticker]

I've never seen any research, but I am curiuos to know if parents are less likely to change jobs than someone with no children. I am not a parent, but if I were, I would be less inclined to leave the company I am with and start a new job. If this is the case, it seems the the company comes out ahead due to less turnover in staff as employees have children. Any parents out there have an opinion?

 

[TechyC]

OK lets talk about clothes from what I can tell half of you want women to dress up like your mothers and half want low cut tops and provocation.

Conclusion it all depends on your team / company and there is no right or wrong answer.

I'm lucky that my work provides work wear hence this is a none issue (I do wish the tops were a little tighter though ;-))

 

[kontiki99]

Senselessticker,

The only way I see your scenario B being valid as a trend, is if men have more unhealthy living habits than women.

I did a little surfing on obesity and it seems to be fairly equally distributed across sex. When you start looking at smoking, drinking, and even genetic health tendencies, I don't know if the distribution supports your point.

I have met slender women that apparently lived on cheese curls and potato chips. Ssnack products are marketed as foods, but I believe should really be classified as toxic materials anyway.

From what I can tell, you can take a bar of animal fat, mix it with sugar, coloring, spray it with vitamin C and D and call it a fortified food.

I’d like to see the MSDS sheets for those candy bars posted near the snack machine!

 

[lostsailor]

TechyC,
Thanks, now I have this perpetual visual of my Mom in a low cut top being provocative. :0)
Regards,
RLS