Wood grade/Species 1

[JStructsteel]

Aoyone here local to Ohio and have an idea what wood species would have been used? Central ohio, near Lima (I know thats pretty specific).
Its dimensional lumber. Im not good at identifying wood by looks, unless hardwoods.

 

[phamENG]

Not local to Ohio, but looks like pine to me. A positive identification usually requires a really good magnifying glass or handheld microscope. https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p2606.pdf

 

[JStructsteel]

Thanks. Based on that picture, could you say its #1 pine or are those knots large enough to deter #1 grade?

Its probably a moot point. I have some joists that are 15'-11" w/ heavy DL due to fire protection. I know I will never get there due to deflection.

 

[phamENG]

Number 1 is questionable, but not out of the question. The grain on some of them looks a bit...loose. I'm assuming that wasn't built yesterday - I'd use pre-2013 No.2 values unless some of them have big ol' knots right on the tension face.

 

[SWComposites]

Looks like lath and plaster were on the walls, so likely built long ago.

 

[phamENG]

Looks like lath and plaster were on the walls, so likely built long ago.

Yeah, but look at those solid brick walls. Just screams modern construction.

 

[RWW0002]

I agree on pine at first glance, but it is not overly difficult to establish a lumber type by looking at fresh-cut end grain with a loupe. USDA has some good information available. You should be able to at least establish hardwood vs softwood species.

The national parks service has a guide and database for field grading lumber. I have used it in the past. It can be difficult to justify a #1 grading for a whole floor system if the lumber was originally ungraded. Things like grain slope and knot size can kick individual members out quickly.

Just for reference:
For a 2x12 So. Pine member I believe knots on the edge 1/3 would be limited to less than 3" and in the center 2/3 less than 3.75" and maximum slope of grain is 1:10
Allowable knot sizes get smaller as you go down in lumber size. (This info is just from some notes from a project long ago, so take it with a grain of salt).

Based on your photos, many of the members look good, and may be fine as #1, but I bet several would not quite meet requirements. If I were you I would lean on historic lumber properties more so than grade, as this is likely more consistent across the whole floor system. As mentioned above I would use pre-2013 values as a minimum. There is some information available for historic lumber properties if you know the approximate age of construction and would like to get a bit more aggressive.

Good luck.

 

[XR250]

@JS,

What is your role here?

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I wouldn't think #1. I see a knot close to the extreme fiber on at least one of the beams. Not sure if that's allowed with #1. But, if I hadn't seen that I'd say that it looks like pretty good lumber.

 

[JStructsteel]

Thanks all.
The county website says built in 1900, but I think a bit later, since dimensional lumber.

I am the engineer, trying to rate the joists. Due to fire code, extra fire proofing is needed, so DL is higher.

 

[XR250]

How much additional dead load is there?

 

[JStructsteel]

How much additional dead load is there?

The total DL is 13.7psf, I rounded up to 15psf.

 

[XR250]

How much added dead load?

 

[JStructsteel]

How much added dead load?

I dont know. I didnt do the original design. I suppose about 6-8 psf?

 

[lexpatrie]

strictly speaking, the foreground looks like old lath and plaster, so say, 1940-1960. If that's actually plaster lath on the back wall, that's fairly specific as I recall it was only in vogue briefly (let's say 20 years?). Then again your information is 1900 and that, to me, feels like doug fir, they were shipping that in copious quantities from the West at the time, and I routinely see it in that time frame where I am (East of you). One would imagine at least some of that lumber made it past Chicago since they were technically shipping it to like, New York City/Philadelphia/Boston.

You want to figure out the existing dead load beyond supposition. Unless your number is confidently conservative.

Are they actually 1.5" wide or 1.625"? Some engineers get skittish using actual dimensions on existing. But if you're going to date the building, there's some values for 1922 over in the FAQ on Wood/materials, if I remember right.

 

[JStructsteel]

strictly speaking, the foreground looks like old lath and plaster, so say, 1940-1960. If that's actually plaster lath on the back wall, that's fairly specific as I recall it was only in vogue briefly (let's say 20 years?). Then again your information is 1900 and that, to me, feels like doug fir, they were shipping that in copious quantities from the West at the time, and I routinely see it in that time frame where I am (East of you). One would imagine at least some of that lumber made it past Chicago since they were technically shipping it to like, New York City/Philadelphia/Boston.

You want to figure out the existing dead load beyond supposition. Unless your number is confidently conservative.

Are they actually 1.5" wide or 1.625"? Some engineers get skittish using actual dimensions on existing. But if you're going to date the building, there's some values for 1922 over in the FAQ on Wood/materials, if I remember right.

Thanks. The 1900 to me is not accurate, or they re-framed at sometime. I didnt think dimensional lumber was in until mid 50's. It is 1.5 wide, and 7.25 deep.

After sharpening the pencil, I am at a position where some pass no problem, some fail no problem. Some are 10% +/- over on deflection, but stresses ok.

Whats your position on overage on deflection? I cant say DL will take care of it, im pretty tight on extra DL. Its sleeping areas, so I have already used a lesser LL.

The over stressed areas, they are going to do a beam line.

Thanks

 

[lexpatrie]

Deflection is servicability, really, so does it block doors from swinging open in a fire or allow excess water to pool on the roof leading to a collapse? Otherwise wouldn't you be able to sister to the existing (perhaps pre-drill) and screw due to the presumed density of the (E) wood? I rather expect a fair number of engineers wouldn't really check deflection in this case, though I suppose I would since it's all coded into a spreadsheet and takes extra effort to shut it off. The older would should probably have a better E anyway, lumber sizes I think I put a FAQ up on the Wood forum. Let me look. Not so easy to flip from one forum to the other anymore.

History of Yard Lumber Sizes, 1964

Design values for wood, 1922

1944 National Design Specification

(I know it's a bit obnoxious pasting the FAQ links versus the document links.)

There was also an allowable increase in stresses during the WWII era, I think that's discussed in the 1997 NDS commentary (I rather thought that was for like barracks only, but I think it was "whole-country".

If you're in the right area, sometimes the historical society has some records, though they may take a while to find/produce if they exist.