Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union. 31

Check it out:


I’m not sure if this helps us or hurts us as a profession. What’s your view?


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

Boeing engineers have been union for quite some time. They've even been on strike. "No nerds, no birds!"

If it works for them great. Unions certainly can be of benefit for their members.

However, they can also suck, as my own limited experience working a union job showed me.


KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

I'd be making less money as union. I'd be stuck at someone else's pay scale with no merit increases or bonuses.

TheTick hit this nail square on the head.

Tick has indeed nailed one of the major issues. Limited ability to recognize an individuals performance.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

Unions were created to "defend" exploited workers from the abusive patrons. Unions now are to epxploit the patrons and the good workers for the union leaders benefit. The bad workers just coast by scratching their meaty ends. In my opinion, though

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

I'm of mixed mind on this one-

Yep, I'd sure be disappointed if my salary didn't include that merit-based component- nothing p*sses a person off more than earning the same as an idiot or a slacker. But since salaries are supposed to be confidential, how would you know you were being ripped off, unless you broke the rules?!

Would I be just as happy to make the idiot or slacker's wage if we BOTH made TWICE what I do now? Hmmm- interesting question!

Engineers have seen their compensation levels slip relative to just about every other regulated profession, to the point where we're now earning in relative terms about HALF what we once did. Unionization wouldn't have stopped our slide toward becoming the "commodity" amongst professions, but would it have helped to slow the slide?

Hope not!

The big problem is that a union makes the idiots and slackers harder to fire- think about the sort of workplace that could produce!

Gawd, I hate union rules, especially the "job differentiation" rules about who is permitted do what. I was on a site where you needed a carpenter to open a crate, a forklift driver to take it over where it needed to be unloaded, a millwright to rig the load and a crane operator to push the buttons on the little POS 2-ton overhead crane they had. Four tasks requiring four guys- all accomplished in our shop by one guy trained properly to do them all. Which shop do you think was more efficient?! And there's no risk here of being "grieved" if you pick up a wrench. If our manufacturing operation were like that unionized shop, much less my engineering office, I'd go nuts right quick!

Stronger leadership is needed in the various engineering disciplines, but unionizing isn't the way to do it.

"Workers don't cause unions, Companies do"
There is something in Boeings history that will explain it.

"Organized labor- the people who brought you the weekend."

I go along with BJC.

Most companies that have unions, deserve 'em.

When I'm job searching, one thing I check out in a new employer is if they have a union of any kind. Previous union history is an indication of a problematic corporate culture.

Trust me, lack of a union is not guarantee either.

Unions tend to morph into old boys clubs disturbingly quickly. More interested in the union leaders objectives etc than the members. The cost of some unions is also ridiculous in relation to the benefit from being a member, especially for newer employees. The one union job I worked, the union was almost just a protection racket.

That said, my wifes union is very cheap, so it's at least value for money.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

Companies cause unions. Unions cause ghost-towns.

A union contract forms a floor for your benefit level, not a ceiling. There are plenty of union workers in the construction industry who are paid more than the scale wage.

I am all for union engineers. I would join if there were a union to represent me. Engineering is a trade, in my opinion.

I'm not afraid to say that I am anti-union.
They had their time, but they don't work anymore.
Companies are hurting now because of unions.
Their greed's, laziness, and ignorance are killing this country (US).

Remember when the union went on strike at Ralph's grocery stores? I had my daughter with me going to buy milk. An idiot raised his strike sign at me and threatened to hit me if I passed.
I sent my daughter in to get the manager while I turned to threatened him back that the stick will be somewhere else if he blinks, and I would slit his throat.
They backed off screaming at me.

They are ruthless and do not care about economies or the welfare of others, only their own jobs and benefits.

The union at Boeing decided to strike for 6 weeks during the worst time of this recession. Airplane shipments and other work were delayed or put on hold because of them, causing billions of $ in losses to the company. Now, they face layoff's to make up the losses.
Does the union care?? No. They received their little bonus and short contract.

Go on strike and lose your house or your job? No sympathy from me.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

I love the Tick's comment. So much truth in so few words.

ctopher,

Sounds like the unions in the US are where the British unions were in the late 60's and early 70's. Now the unions and the major industries that spawned them are gone, and so are the jobs. It ain't all good once the unions are gone, just very different and with a new set of problems. A moderate union can be a good thing, and a union who can work with the management is better. Unfortunately most companies where the employees feel the need to unionise tend to have a management who have failed them: a happy workforce who are looked after by their employer has little need to unionise; a company where the workforce are unhappy enough to unionise already has problems.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

I agree.
But over the years, greed has corrupted the unions and companies/managers let them get away with it.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

Ah, the good old days of King Aurthur and Red Robbo.
Aurthur Scargill was set to be president for life of his miner's union. Nw there is virtually no coal mining in the UK.
Red Robbo was doing his bit at British Leyland and we all know what happened to that.

Interesting.
When Nissan built their car plant in the UK you couldn't have found a greater contrast between Nissan in Sunderland and British Leyland in Birmingham. I visited both (this was when I were nowt but a lad).

At BL they were potting windscreen wash into the cars from a pallet of bottles. Well, they would have been doing so if the production line was running and it never was when I visited, it was always stopped for some reason and the workers could always find a reason.

At Nissan I watched a worker being practically dragged along by a car as he attempted to remedy a problem without stopping the production line and it is notable that he did want to fix the problem rather than let it get sorted under warranty. Plus, they would use their breaks to load up the ready use bins at the side of the conveyor.

It was claimed they made better Nissan cars in Sunderland than they did in Japan.
I guess the Leyland image at that time was such that the word "quality" had no meaning.




JMW

Engineering is not a trade. It is a profession. God knows we hear enough complaining of the lack of respect that engineering gets compared to other professions.

Perhaps the hacksmanship that passes for engineering under the U.S. industrial exemption is a trade.

Tick, I'd like to give you 2 stars for the last post.

Engineering is a profession. Thus, the initials P.E. after my name.

BTW, I was working for Boeing back in the late 90s when the SPEAA strike happened. Being raised in a blue-collar house, I understood the importance of supporting your fellow employee, so I didn't work during the strike. But, I also was not part of the union (not a dues paying member, anyway) nor did I walk the picket line. Pointless, in my opinion.

What really pissed me off, and why I won't ever work for Boeing again, is that I was represented by the union even if I wasn't a member. And the dues only went to pay for the union reps salaries - no strike fund or any member support. And, the union did set a salary cap for grade levels; so even though I worked harder and better than my tenured counterparts, I could not get more than a cost-of-living raise because that's what was stated in the union's contract.

--Scott