Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union. 31

[swertel]

Last example for today.

A coworker of mine was on business travel. While there, he got to tour the inside of a plane during carpeting. In this particular instance, the tradesman usually carpets the plane by himself. To pull the carpet tight, he places a weight on one side of the aisle and goes to the either side and tugs. Well, since my coworker was standing right there, the tradesman asked him to stand on the edge of the carpet for him and hold it down while the tradesman pulled it tight.

As this was going on, the two of them were still chatting the host returned to pick up my coworker for the remainder of the tour. My coworker got reported to the union for performing the union (carpeting) labor. He didn't even work there! As a matter of fact, he was just standing there.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[Unotec]

Scott, where the hell do you work? well, no need to say, but it must be fun poking the beehive! Just make sure you're well out of the way when the queen bee comes out!
I used to poke at the worker's union in University and loved it! Had a little bit of an issue picking up my graduation certificate, though, but I did at the end

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[TheTick]

I once read an interesting interview with a professional union-buster. The very first thing he does when he comes into a company is terminate automatic payroll deductions for union dues. When workers need to write checks to the unions, things get less rosy for the union thugs.

 

[BJC]

"Engineering is not a trade."
May be true but it's how you employer looks at you that counts.
Most don't share your view.

 

[jmw]

Most employers (HR) seem to treat engineers as if they were unskilled labour and easily replaced.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[dvd]

Another story: some millwrights found drawing errors and fixed the problem themselves. Engineers found out and were outraged. What is the difference? You folks don't want someone else doing your job, why get offended when óthers don't want you doing theirs? Would it be okay to perform open heart surgery without a medical license? Stick with what you know and show respect to the workers of other trades.

 

[apsix]

dvd
Can we assume that you call an electrician when you need to change a lightglobe at home?

 

[ScottyUK]

"...Engineers found out and were outraged...." and then they meekly went back to work, grouching about the minimal rise they got this year?

"...Engineers found out and were outraged...." and then they blockaded the plant, engaging in violent picket-line confrontation with police?

I wonder which is the more likely?


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[TheTick]

It actually isn't a fair comparison (millwright drawing story). You can't compare this to the petty protectionism of teamsters. Yes, there is a difference between changing a legal document against procedure and holding down a carpet or moving a box. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

 

[ewh]

Tick is right. Drawings are legal documents, and proper procedures are to be followed to maintain configuration control. If they wrote out a change order, got it approved, made the drawing change, got it released at a new revision level, and didn't need to make any CAD model changes, then it might be OK.

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - [small]Hunter S. Thompson[/small]

 

[Unotec]

If the change was something that definitively needed doing and I missed it in my drawings, I would say thanks and get the drawing changed. However, I would request them that next time they consult before doing the change if time does not allow for a full change order-approval-new drawing

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[Twoballcane]

Wow, you guys were really busy while I was away.

I agree with most of you that unionizing Engineering is not a good idea. I don’t think it will buy us anything. However, I see some of the posts points that Engineering seems like a trade. I guess this view is more oversees than here in the USA. For me for the past few years I have been treated as a professional by the companies that I have worked for and have been woed by. Not sure if this is the same oversees.

It will always be us against them attitude with union. I myself have been grieved twice one for taking a panel off a rack and the other was for moving a file cabinet from one office to my office which was only two rooms down.

If anybody is from Boeing, please give us your insight of the union and how it benefited or hurt your carrier in Boeing or even finding work in other companies.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[swertel]

In both my personal examples above, I was working for Boeing at the time.

While working at Boeing, I was represented by the engineers union there and I was there during the first strike they had.

It absolutely killed my career. I was a fresh grad, kind of a hot-shot like most are, but I also worked by arse off to be able to learn and prove myself. There were "lifers" in my group that didn't do squat.

I went in to my manager's office for my annual review. Each time I came out with a 3.5% raise. At the time, less than inflation. Why? Because that was the negotiated raise the company had with the union. And, as mentioned earlier, even though I wasn't a member of the union, I was still represented by them. So, no matter how hard I worked or what I was able to accomplish, I got the same raise as the guy sitting around doing nothing all day - that I ended up having to do his work as well as mine because I actually took pride in my work.

And, because the union had organized the seniority policy as well, when lay-offs came around I was the first on the chopping block. It didn't matter that I worked harder, better, and got more done than my elder-counterparts. They had seniority so they got to stick around and I was sent walking. (Actually, my boss recognized my abilities and managed to "hide" me from 2 rounds of layoffs. Nice guy! The 3rd round was coming and I knew there was no safe place for me, so I left on my own terms.)

To this day, even though I worked with some great people; and the technologies I worked on were incredible; the entire Boeing concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth and things would have to get very gloomy for me before I would ever consider returning to work for that company.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[ewh]

In leiu of an approved change document, a mark up signed by a resposible engineering representative would probably be acceptable until the formal change could be made. Letting production personel change engineering documents on their own is just wrong, unless engineering is notified in some way before anything is fabricated from the resulting change.

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - [small]Hunter S. Thompson[/small]

 

[dvd]

A couple of remarks:

1.) I express my opionions as my own, I don't much care for those who jump on the bandwagon and hide behind a group. So why am I in favor of unions? Because I think it is in my best interest. I don't see employers volunteering anything to employees.

2.) I don't pick up tools or try to do the work of the crafts out of respect. I believe it is hypocritical to say that crafts people should not do engineering work and then turn around and expect to be able to do as I see fit in their jurisdiction.

 

[moltenmetal]

dvd:

I believe in the division of labour: there are different tasks that are appropriate to the skills, training AND compensation levels of labourers, tradespeople, drafters and designers, technicians and technologists, and engineers. I respect these roles and the training and skill it takes to fill them well- but I definitely see engineers as the pinnacle of this heirarchy due to their education and their public protection mandate.

There are a few distinctions between roles which are set in law. Though I design pressure piping and direct the work of pipefitters every day, I am still not permitted to run a natural gas line because I carry no gasfitter's license. That's an appropriate measure for safety reasons.

There is NO WAY that I will respect petty, arbitrary, protectionist distinctions between these fields which exist SOLELY to provide people with a false sense of job security. Union-enforced job differentiation rules stymie an organization's efficiency and build arbitrary barriers between co-workers who should, indeed MUST, see themselves as working together toward a common purpose if the organization is to succeed.

Engineers who never get their hands dirty are the bane of our profession. Engineers who are prevented from EVER getting their hands dirty on company time by union rules etc. are going to be forever handicapped in one of their key roles: keeping the constructors and maintenance staff in mind when doing their designs.

 

[Twoballcane]

Just wanted to add this to stir the pot. Check out what John says about the unions at the big three...

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Autos/story?id=6402552&page=1

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[jmw]

A friend worked for a manufacturing company (hygienic fittings) where the union had agreed a three shift system but as there weren't the orders the night workers did nothing all night but sleep or "homers" - instead of making fittings they made kitchen items for themselves. When there was work they weren't allowed to work at any rate too fast...

I guess the rule was no one worked faster that the slowest rate of the slowest worker.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[KENAT]

Yeah, my dad made himself unpopular in at least one union job by working too fast and making others look bad.

While I like the idea of unions helping workers bargain etc. with employers, in practice they don't seem so great much of the time.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[cranky108]

Not that I like unions, but from what I have seen they do support safer working conditions, and requiring that companies purchase protective clothing for the employees.

On the other hand OHSA is taking over that task and further making the unions a relic of the past.