Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union. 31

[Unotec]

Well, prime example of how worthless a union is. Bailout. It rather lose the jobs than take a pay cut. Not that I was for the bailout. However, having the union workers lose their jobs rather thank taking a pay and benefit cut, in times of a recession.... well....
And it is not the first time I see this. In the Volkswagen plant in Puebla, Mexico, many years ago, they union chose to have 50% of the workforce laid off rather than taking a 35% pay cut.
I despise modern unions

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[cranky108]

As said in many news sources, the auto bailout is actually a bailout of the unions.
It's probally better to allow a judge to modify the contract and force a lowering of the union pay. And if they strike, it lowers production of cars, which isen't a problem right now.

 

[RossABQ]

Some unions work very well with the companies they serve, on a local basis. In the SW, I would far rather have a union pipefitter doing pressure piping projects than non-union. I would not want to climb a 3-story scaffold built by non-union carpenters.

On the other hand (no pun intended!), the fitters' hall sent a guy with hooks for both hands to work a high-pressure steam pipe welding job... The guy never lasts more than a day on each job before being sent back to the hall, but he gets a guaranteed 4 hours pay for showing up.

(and by the way, he didn't lose his hands on the job; he blew them off fishing with dynamite -- TWICE)

 

[ctopher]

I would climb a 3-story scaffold built by a non-union carpenter. It would depend how well it was built. It's all in the training.
I have climbed scaffolding and walk across catwalks built by both, and have seen both cr*p and superior craftsmanship.
I have also seen union workers cost the company more $$ by taking longer to build. A lot of them have the attitude that they can't be fired and can work overtime.
I have also worked with union engineers cut corners on designs to finish a job sooner hoping for a raise, promotion, or bonus. then they work overtime to fix the problem.
We don't need unions, we need management that understand what they are managing.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[NomLaser]

Unions have exhausted their usefulness in the US. If you don't believe me, go ask Ford, GM or Chrysler why their costs of manufacture are so high and why they have to use lower quality parts to compete in price.

 

[spongebob007]

The other thing I find useless about modern unions is the strike. In the early days of unions I could see that the strike could be a poweful weapon against unsafe/grossly unfair working conditions. Thanks to OSHA and other labor laws, one of the biggest reasons for going on strike no longer exists.

 

[Unotec]

Unions had their time. We now have the safety, worker's and environmental government bodies to contend with. Not saying they are a lesser evil, but having two devils is just a tad bit too much

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[cloa]

In Australia, we have an organisation called APESMA which is a employee representative organisation for Engineers, Scientists and Managers also many other benefits so has bargaining aspects of a union without the all invasive components. Anything like that in the US.

 

[GregLocock]

APESMA is a union. What makes you think it does not come with all the usual baggage?



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Unotec]

If the way to negotiate the solution to a problem, nowadays, is a strike. Either the company is worthless or the workers are worthless.
Unions might, just might, still have a place un some undeveloped countries (how I hate that term). But they are way past their usefulness in countries where there are government bodies that will attend a legal case presented by a worker, being safety related, working conditions related, etc...

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[cranky108]

What about a union of goverment workers, where the employer in known to be corrupt, and trouble makers tend to end up in cold places. And there is a chance of the job ending every 4 years. (Not every goverment is like this, but some are).

 

[Unotec]

I've lived in such a place. The government is utterly corrupt... so are the unions.
funny, most of the government jobs did end every six years (in this case) but the unions just stuck around.
Next government was corrupt too.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[moltenmetal]

Then there's the communist government of China- one of the most anti-union governments in the world...

Those guys must have read a Chinese translation of Orwell's "Animal Farm"...

 

[cranky108]

I think you missed the part about the union staying, and the managment going every 6 years. In this case the union protects the workers not from a pay, or safty perspective, but from a political event.

 

[Unotec]

Good point cranky, never thought about that. Having said so, the union jobs I was thinking of were not that dependant on the government changes. Think utility workers and such, where only the upper management is on the friend's payrolls

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[cranky108]

I've worked with utilities that were both strong union, and no union, and the bigest difference that I could see is the managment. Everyone had the intent to do a good job, but the divide between managment and workers seems difficult for some managers to understand. (I guess respect was the word).
In the weak and no union atomspheres, the line people seemed to see there coworkers as part of the brotherhood, just like the unions.
The biggest difference was the interface between the line managers and the design engineers, and safety people.

 

[kepharda]

To all you folks that don't wish to take the PE Exam and carry the title P.E. want to feel even worse, in 15-25 years I think the 'Powers that Be' will take away your title.

As it stands I believe there is a suggestion that a Master's Deg. be required to sit for the PE Exam by future Grads.

Not that it truly matters, a if you are a good diligent worker with a BS you will have employment just not the title on your card.

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

 

[cranky108]

Are you suggesting that the PE stamp could become like a union membership card?
Sometimes seems like it now. As the PE stamp should weed out the bone heads, but it dosen't.

 

[Twoballcane]

I do agree that all Engineers should be licensed. Just like any other professional organization, from teachers to doctors, why can't the Engineering field do the same? Actually I have been wondering how do companies in industries that do engineering work but their engineers are not PE? I do not have a PE, but I am working on that.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[GregLocock]

Well, the way we work is that we test our products before releasing them to the great unwashed, and take some responsibility for their faults. We don't design to Codes, we design mostly to pass specific tests (that is our regulation is more by outcomes than by methods).

I'm not sure that licensing the exempt industries makes a great deal of sense, although from a selfish perspective I would be fully in favour of an AMA style union that regulated the supply of engineers and enforced where they could be used. I doubt the employers or academics would support that and would in fact do everything in their power to destroy it, as they have in the UK.







Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.