Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations KootK on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

wastewater pumps with shared rising main

Status
Not open for further replies.

swazimatt

Civil/Environmental
Aug 19, 2009
242
Hypothetical question.

If there are two wastewater pumpstations at different locations but discharging to the same manhole, what would the implication be if they shared the same rising main for the last section (a significant length of the total rising main)? WWPS are normally float operated and there is a chance that they will never run at the same time (unlikely as they would have similar peak flow periods).
Assume similar pump conditions where in one scenario the rising main is sized for one pump discharge (no additional flow in the common pipe portion - designed as if it was a dedicated rising main). This could happen if a new pump station's rising main is Tee'd into an existing rising main. I would assume that when both pumps operate at the same time the flow would be combined for that portion which would increase the velocity in the common pipe, increase friction losses and ultimately may result in the pump not operating way off the desired duty point. What would the outcome be in this situation?

Second scenario, one of the pumps is operating at a higher pressure than the other as a result of different flows, what would happen to the flow at the smaller wwps? If they were online at the same time, would the smaller pump be running against a higher head and need to overcome this before it would move any wastewater, or if it wasn't able to overcome the head at connection, only start moving ww when the larger pump actually finishes its pumping cycle?

lastly if it was a planned situation would it be best practice to size the common pipe for combined flow and check that the pump is still within efficient operation when it is operating on it's own
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

"What would the outcome be in this situation?"

Less total flow (I.e. not the sum of each one as if the other wasn't pumping) or higher head required.

Second one.Correct

Third one Yes.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Second one.

I think if it depends on how the pumps (or connecting pump to main pipes) are connected into the main and whatever backpressure the downstream piping may be placing at the connecting node. Think this one through with me.

If each pump were connected with check valves, then the check with the lower inlet pressure may not open, dead heading the low pressure pump. However if there were no discharge check valves, the only thing we know is that the pressure at the connecting in all pipes node must be equal. Let's say we had two pipes connecting at a header. One pipe with 100 psig at its inlet, the other with 50 psig at its inlet. The Pressure at the connection to the header of both pipes is unknown (for now). We only know that by continuity, it must be the result of the two inlet flows into the header minus the flow being taken away from the header by the downstream piping. If the downstream piping has the ability to evacuate all the flow going into the header, whatever pressure is there will not increase from whatever it is right now. If the header and downstream piping had discharge valve, currently discharging at 0 psig, and we started closing it, backpressure would be created that would make its way upstream until it came to the header inlet node. If our outlet valve added 40 psi, the outlet from the header would now be 40 psi plus flow loss in the downstream piping, say 5 psi, or 45 psig.
Now we would know that the pressure at the header inlet must be some combination of what pipe 1 could put into it at 100 psig and what pipe 2 could put into it at 50 psig. If the flow from the 100 psig pipe was very tiny, say 1/100th of the flow coming from the 50 psig pipe, pipe #1 wouldn't have much to say about the final pressure at the node. On the other hand, if the flow from the 100 psig pipe was 100 x that of the 50 psig pipe, the resulting node pressure would be very near 100 psig, unless the discharge pipeline was a very large diameter and could evacuate all the flow going into it without causing any increase over the 45 psig inlet pressure. In that case, and even if there were check valves, neither one would close and you would get flow from both.

So... I will contend that the flow from the lower pressure pump will not go to dead head 0 unless the backpresdure of the downstream piping is greater than its discharge pressure, check valves, or not. Until the backpressure of the downstream piping reaches that of the lower pressure pump, the node pressure at the connection of both pumps is the result of both pumps, which is a function of how much flow is contributed by each pump in relation to the other pump taken in combination with the evacuation rate of the downstream piping, as evidenced by its backpressure building up all the water to its inlet.

I think that makes sense. Do you see a fail in that theory?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
I suggest modeling this system and looking at three pumping configurations (P1 only, P2 only, and P1+P2), each with maximum and minimum static lifts, so six scenarios total. That way you can know for certain how the pumps operate separately and together.

The freeware program EPANET can handle this, as can any of the commercial water modeling programs.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill
 
You could also do with checks or without.

Without check valves and pressure higher than the lowest pump discharge pressure, that pump could experience reverse flow. If you do this, a check valve located at least there, sounds like a good idea.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
Can the pump prime against a check valve with a column of water on top of it?
 
Wastewater pumps are installed such that the impellers stay flooded. The times I have had to resolve loss of prime on a pump like this it was due to leaking check valves letting sewage fermentation gas from downstream push the water out of the impeller casing (in other words forcing loss of prime).
The solution is venting the gas out of the system. The location where the venting gets installed depends on the specific location.
 
Thanks all.
These would be submersible pumps with a chaeck valve at wetwell outlet, so no need for another one at the junction

Submersible pumps so no need to prime

I have used epanet loads, but it didn't cross my mind to use it for WWPS (Doh!)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor