A coming engineering shortage ? ---- Who agrees ? 86

[MJCronin]

A recent article says that there will be an acute shortage ... particularly in the electrical field !!!

http://www.csemag.com/single-articl...hortage/7b350ef419c231a9f82abc6c8bd8fac4.html

Who agrees ???

Who strongly disagrees ???

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[GregLocock]

Probably confusing base pay and total package.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[MFJewell]

How could the median income among the ASME membership have jumped to $144,000 in 2017?

It all depends on who responds to the survey.

 

[moltenmetal]

Our own salary data show absolutely no evidence of increases in either salary or total compensation that would be sufficient to indicate any kind of shortage of engineers in Ontario. Salaries were more or less keeping pace with the increases in the cost of living but almost nothing beyond that.

An engineer still earns a nice upper middle-class income here, but the median salary of a Level D engineer (minimum of 10 yrs of experience, where salaries tend to plateau in constant value dollars terms) in 2013 was nearly identical to the median income of a teacher here in Ontario once the difference in the number of days worked per year was factored into the calculation.

 

[CWB1]

Almost all the guys who went out on their own only stuck to their small speciality, often selling services back to their former employer, and/or had so much experience that they were qualified beyond question.

At a large consulting firm, you are far more likely to get work done by a fresh grad, even for work that was won with an experienced engineer's resume. Sending work to a one man shop or a very small firm, almost guarantees your job is going to be done by someone with 20+ years of experience.

In the larger transportation (auto, trucking, construction, ag, rail) industry I've seen the exact opposite. The rare few who now work independently for their former employer do seem to stick to their niche, however the vast majority quickly discover their niche unsustainably small and quickly branch into being the proverbial jack of all trades, master of none. I've supervised ~25 outsourced projects the past decade, mainly easier "overflow" design work that two former employers simply didnt have the manpower to handle. The large firms have been very successful at providing cost effective, efficient, and robust designs within the time and money budgeted. The smaller firms OTOH have a very high rate of failure, typically you'll get a functional prototype that is some combination of expensive to manufacture and/or not very durable. IMHO to be successful in this industry you need a very broad knowledge base and that's simply not going to happen at a small firm. I could care less about who does the actual work, a creative recent grad guided by an experienced engineer and running through standard design and quality processes produces excellent work and often new IP. I cant comment on other industries, but 20 years in this one is far from an expert on anything other than a very small niche.

Regarding the ASME salary survey, I have always seen the worldwide median to be higher than the US. Not sure if that would explain the $144k or if it includes benefits as mentioned above. Last I knew in the US the base median was something over $110k and that was what I was referencing previously. Having left home at 18 with $200, a small duffle of clothes, and the understanding that I wouldnt be welcomed back if I failed, I wont ever gripe about pay in an industry where the median is in the top 10% and benefits are excellent. Locally here around Detroit I believe we have seen a shortage of engineers and US friends elsewhere tell me they've similarly struggled to find bodies to fill positions unlike any other time in recent history. This past summer I know several companies had $2-3k employee referral bonuses per new-hire engineer who lasted through a minimum period whereas the normal (when offered) is $1-500.

 

[MFJewell]

Some more fuel for the fire (Articles about UK engineering):

Link

Link

By the way, you guys in the UK seem way underpaid. Here in 'Murica, my first job out of school, I was higher than the most expensive area there (converting GBP to USD) and am now more than three times that amount.

 

[ScottyUK]

Yeah, overall I agree with you. One of the consequences of an almost totally unregulated profession is that anyone who can spell 'engineer' can pretend to be one. Once you have that situation market forces take over and it is a race to the bottom. :-(

 

[CWB1]

I am glad to be a Professional Engineer and I am glad to run my own one woman shop. If I can get back on my feet and grow it, I will. Hopefully you will not be so ill tempered towards me, if I succeed.

lacajun, my apologies if I come across as ill-tempered or wishing anyone ill-will as that is not my intention. Rather to the contrary, folks often describe me as "happy go lucky" and nice to a fault. This is simply a matter we both feel strongly about and an academic debate, nothing personal. As engineers we must remember that it is our duty to debate, attempt to poke holes in others' theories and work, and be willing to admit that we are not perfect. There are ethical and unscrupulous folks, competent and incompetent ones, and stereotypes on both sides of this debate. Some folks are protective of the title "engineer," personally I'm protective of my peers' work and abhor titles as commonly given too freely and being difficult to retract. Just as you argue for higher licensing requirements many of the rest of us argue for the abolishment of licensing as a failed experiment stateside. If licensure was implemented differently its likely many of us would support it. Get rid of the antiquated once/lifetime general knowledge test that does nothing to test niche competence or knowledge of modern technology and technique, and exchange it for a requirement to patent and/or publish original technical work every 5 years so as to be progressive in advancing technology and science rather than the current regressive system that only serves to protect the guild. Enforce basic quality and ethical standards rather than merely preaching about them. Peer review is an ethical requirement of every project regardless of expertise, as-is remaining in your niche of expertise! Another important one is to rescind an engineer's license when they take years off from the profession to ensure their competency isnt lost as many are. I know a now-retired patent attorney with a PE who quite literally never worked in an engineering office in the 30 years since law school yet remains fully endorsed by the state to sign off on safety critical design - that's freakin scary, and I'd suspect the current NSPE president will be in that same position in a few decades. Fix the issues with the current system and more will endorse it, I would in that case.

 

[lacajun]

CWB1, apology accepted and thank you for doing so.

I fully agree with your right and thoughts to debate the subject. I fully understand that many disagree with licensure and know some PEs do, too. However, I cannot escape my own personal experiences as an engineer and thoughts derived from those experiences.

protect the guild.

There is no guild that I perceive. There is little power that PEs wield, if any. There is a ton of unpleasant responsibility. Writing a legal document highlighting numerous code violations to submit to a Client, in which you are in a heated legal dispute, is most unpleasant. But, that's the responsibility of PEs.

The power lies with the police state to regulate society. If you read case law, you'll learn why it came about.

Enforce basic quality and ethical standards rather than merely preaching about them.

That is what licensure is all about. The FE/PE exams establish a minimum standard for engineers to practice engineering. I've read others stating that the minimum pass rate is 70% for both exams. I don't know the validity of that so take it with a grain of salt. However, if it's true, that's a broad spectrum of ability for a profession. Based upon my experiences, I believe the same pass rate probably exists for medicine and law.

As an example of the power of the police state, Louisiana publishes a list of violators in each Louisiana Journal. You can read some of them here by clicking on the Journal link: LAPELS As you will notice, they also regulate the use of Land Surveyor and for good reason. I don't know if the board investigates or people, from all walks, turn them in for investigation and disciplinary action, if needed. I've watched a lot of stuff in industry, where I spent the bulk of my career, watching people do unethical things and without any disciplinary actions taken. I've watched some of those within engineering firms with unlicensed engineers. Honestly, when I reflect upon what I've experienced, it's hard for even me to comprehend. But, I understand human nature and have thought long and hard about it all of my life. My dad's behaviors initiated the whole process for me.

Even with most people in the workplace, I think most people are trying to do the right things and look out for themselves, too. Sometimes those things are at odds and that's where some other behaviors come into play for each of us. I think it's often difficult for most of us to understand the subtleties of various situations. Subtleties have certainly escaped me and continue to do so. It's one reason I visit this website. It helps sharpen my thinking and understanding of subtle aspects of life, technical and otherwise. I don't agree with all people's views but I do consider them and particularly those that are challenging. The more challenging, the more thought given. We're all in this journey of learning together.

Peer review is an ethical requirement of every project

Agreed. My work has been peer reviewed, by a host people, throughout my career and I've been watching others' work, too. I think most engineers' work is reviewed. I get there are varying degrees of abilities across the board, licensed and unlicensed. My positions have not been developed in a vacuum. When I went into an engineering firm recently to do a presentation on career management, the audience realized that what they ultimately sought I couldn't provide. I have worked for five different employers and have been running my own business for years. I couldn't provide one example of what they really sought. So, I am not inexperienced in the profession of engineering. At 58, I am not inexperienced in life either.

I know a now-retired patent attorney with a PE

Same here. But I have no problem with his retention of his PE license. He continues to give back to the profession by volunteering in NSPE, supporting NSPE financially beyond paying his dues, and supporting the profession by advocating for it. He entered law because he saw the instability of the workplace for engineers. It didn't take him long to see it either, which prompted him to study law at night, while he worked as an engineer. Further, he fully understands it is not his place to practice engineering any longer and, indeed, he does not. He is an honorable man. Also, there are uneducated, i.e., never attended an institution of higher education, people that practice engineering. They call themselves engineers. They do make mistakes. They cause me more heartburn than PEs turned lawyers.

I've been in meetings with some of those uneducated people practicing engineering that will equate themselves to educated engineers even engineers with their Ph.D.s in engineering. In fact, one considered himself better than a Ph.D. in chemical engineering that works all over the world. It's been fascinating to see the breadth and depth of human behaviors. Simply fascinating! It doesn't take much to listen and understand there are significant gaps in their abilities and education. But, they are practicing as engineers and without the benefit of ever attending any institution of higher education. That scares me.

I also think people tend to misunderstand how the profession works in its entirety. If I can formulate some ideas for discussion, I will. I think it would be an interesting topic to explore. I think I would benefit from it, too, and a great deal. I've not thought much about it nor researched it much.



Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php