CWB1, apology accepted and thank you for doing so.
I fully agree with your right and thoughts to debate the subject. I fully understand that many disagree with licensure and know some PEs do, too. However, I cannot escape my own personal experiences as an engineer and thoughts derived from those experiences.
CWB1 said:
There is no guild that I perceive. There is little power that PEs wield, if any. There is a ton of unpleasant responsibility. Writing a legal document highlighting numerous code violations to submit to a Client, in which you are in a heated legal dispute, is most unpleasant. But, that's the responsibility of PEs.
The power lies with the police state to regulate society. If you read case law, you'll learn why it came about.
CWB1 said:
Enforce basic quality and ethical standards rather than merely preaching about them.
That is what licensure is all about. The FE/PE exams establish a minimum standard for engineers to practice engineering. I've read others stating that the minimum pass rate is 70% for both exams. I don't know the validity of that so take it with a grain of salt. However, if it's true, that's a broad spectrum of ability for a profession. Based upon my experiences, I believe the same pass rate probably exists for medicine and law.
As an example of the power of the police state, Louisiana publishes a list of violators in each Louisiana Journal. You can read some of them here by clicking on the Journal link:
LAPELS As you will notice, they also regulate the use of Land Surveyor and for good reason. I don't know if the board investigates or people, from all walks, turn them in for investigation and disciplinary action, if needed. I've watched a lot of stuff in industry, where I spent the bulk of my career, watching people do unethical things and without any disciplinary actions taken. I've watched some of those within engineering firms with unlicensed engineers. Honestly, when I reflect upon what I've experienced, it's hard for even me to comprehend. But, I understand human nature and have thought long and hard about it all of my life. My dad's behaviors initiated the whole process for me.
Even with most people in the workplace, I think most people are trying to do the right things and look out for themselves, too. Sometimes those things are at odds and that's where some other behaviors come into play for each of us. I think it's often difficult for most of us to understand the subtleties of various situations. Subtleties have certainly escaped me and continue to do so. It's one reason I visit this website. It helps sharpen my thinking and understanding of subtle aspects of life, technical and otherwise. I don't agree with all people's views but I do consider them and particularly those that are challenging. The more challenging, the more thought given. We're all in this journey of learning together.
CWB1 said:
Peer review is an ethical requirement of every project
Agreed. My work has been peer reviewed, by a host people, throughout my career and I've been watching others' work, too. I think most engineers' work is reviewed. I get there are varying degrees of abilities across the board, licensed and unlicensed. My positions have not been developed in a vacuum. When I went into an engineering firm recently to do a presentation on career management, the audience realized that what they ultimately sought I couldn't provide. I have worked for five different employers and have been running my own business for years. I couldn't provide one example of what they really sought. So, I am not inexperienced in the profession of engineering. At 58, I am not inexperienced in life either.
CWB1 said:
I know a now-retired patent attorney with a PE
Same here. But I have no problem with his retention of his PE license. He continues to give back to the profession by volunteering in NSPE, supporting NSPE financially beyond paying his dues, and supporting the profession by advocating for it. He entered law because he saw the instability of the workplace for engineers. It didn't take him long to see it either, which prompted him to study law at night, while he worked as an engineer. Further, he fully understands it is not his place to practice engineering any longer and, indeed, he does not. He is an honorable man. Also, there are uneducated, i.e., never attended an institution of higher education, people that practice engineering. They call themselves engineers. They do make mistakes. They cause me more heartburn than PEs turned lawyers.
I've been in meetings with some of those uneducated people practicing engineering that will equate themselves to educated engineers even engineers with their Ph.D.s in engineering. In fact, one considered himself better than a Ph.D. in chemical engineering that works all over the world. It's been fascinating to see the breadth and depth of human behaviors. Simply fascinating! It doesn't take much to listen and understand there are significant gaps in their abilities and education. But, they are practicing as engineers and without the benefit of ever attending any institution of higher education. That scares me.
I also think people tend to misunderstand how the profession works in its entirety. If I can formulate some ideas for discussion, I will. I think it would be an interesting topic to explore. I think I would benefit from it, too, and a great deal. I've not thought much about it nor researched it much.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
