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A coming engineering shortage ? ---- Who agrees ? 86

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Surely the real question in Oz is what proportion of talented qualified engineers (as opposed to people with rather hopeless engineering degrees and undue optimism) are out of work? In 30 years the company i worked for, and indeed the entire sector, has stopped manufacturing cars, yet of the rather large number of engineers who have perforce had to work elsewhere, in my experience very few have actually stopped working as engineers, except those who retired. Anecdote is not data but it seems odd that so many of my friends and colleagues have found work as engineers outside the car industry, if there is in fact a glut of qualified talented engineers.

For heaven's sake, my department was 25% understaffed for years, not for want of trying to recruit. I am glad to say that they've just restarted a graduate recruitment program.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
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spraytechnology, my graduate advisor required us to read the WSJ, track the economy, track government actions, etc. One thing he emphasized repeatedly was revision of definitions regarding the economy, by the feds, to make things appear better than they are. A fellow EE posted something on FB several years ago about unemployment stats, which prompted me to do some digging. When I looked at the same numbers using older definitions, my numbers were in depression range. His were in severe recession range. I've not looked at anything since but be aware of changing definitions.

Companies always want everything for nothing. Employees are not charities and companies sitting on billions in cash should be the last to view employees as charities.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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Greg Locock....the argument was around migration and the oversupply of engineers in local markets....

I would expect that a local groomed engineer with local experience would have no mobility issues in the Australian market even when they switch fields.

The issue is more to do with new graduates and foreign trained engineers that flood the market. Their chances to land a proper career role is less attainable and no doubt and regardless of what Engineers Australia say, there is a huge mismatch between demand and supply.
 
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Folks, most engineers (not all) must face the fact that we have not established enough professional (dare I say "protectionist") associations to serve our needs for policing our own, giving us the power of a large membership, and certifying our knowledge and skills. Is it time to organize?

ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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Respectfully disagree. As we live in a global market now, its possible for other countries to over supply a number of engineers keeping the salary down. An educational trade imbalance if you will. But if you look at the technical level like automation technicians, maintenance, then yes there is a long term shortage issue. Those less costly educational/career paths pays pretty good too. There are even situations where the 2 year (with extra automation specialty courses) hourly employee with overtime, makes more annually than the 4 year salary engineer.

Don
BIN Industrial & PLC Training
 
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Tunalover: I can only say this: here in Ontario, all school board teachers are unionized, and only a handful of public sector engineers are unionized. And as of 2013 (and I guarantee you that it has gotten no better since!), the median salary of a schoolteacher here was numerically equal to the median salary of a Level D (10+ yrs of experience) professional engineer once adjusting for the number of days worked per year. Both figures are based on accurate salary survey data- the teachers from the Drummond Report, the engineers from OSPE's survey of members back-checked against their survey of employers. The reason is simple: engineers have been subject to salary suppression due to supply/demand pressure, whereas teachers haven't- because they are unionized. Hence, we see teacher as a post-graduate career option for many engieering grads here in Ontario- making up a fraction of the 70% of engineering grads here who do not work as engineers or engineering managers.
 
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Tunalover, I have been thinking as you for quite some time. As I read David B. Steinman's writings, which you can find at NSPE's website, some things became clear to me. Two of his goals were to improve the profession to the status of law and medicine and to improve compensation. Engineering is a wonderful profession but it needs guidance else it suffers and we along with it.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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lacajun said:
Two of his goals were to improve the profession to the status of law and medicine and to improve compensation. Engineering is a wonderful profession but it needs guidance else it suffers and we along with it.
Click to expand...

You took the words straight from my mouth lacajun! I will have to go to the website you provided to get some good quotes to back my position going forward.

ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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Folks, most engineers (not all) must face the fact that we have not established enough professional (dare I say "protectionist") associations to serve our needs for policing our own, giving us the power of a large membership, and certifying our knowledge and skills. Is it time to organize?
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite actually. The vast majority of engineers have chosen not to participate in such protectionist schemes and take a dim view of those that do, most considering it unethical. Our profession is more than adequately policed by the legal profession, well-respected and well-paid, and our knowledge and skills certified by our successes. If anything, we are well-past due to eliminate nontechnical societies working against this profession, as well as the false security of licensure.
 
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CWB1,

That is certainly not a universal truth. If you live in a country where 'engineer' is a protected title or a licensed profession then you're fortunate, but don't make the error of assuming that situation exists in all countries.
 
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Unless I've misunderstood, CWB1 does live in a jurisdiction where professional engineers have "right to title", i.e. Canada.

However, professional engineers other than structural engineers have no MEANINGFUL, defensible right to title or to practice in Canada.

Anyone here can work as an employee engineer under either the C of A or the industrial exemption from licensure. My driver's license grants me more meaningful rights of licensure than my P.Eng. does, and it costs me a lot less too...

Once we engineers acknowledge that we are no longer a profession, but a commodity, we will likely be better off, if for no other reason than we'll give up delusions of grandeur that aren't serving to do much other than disappoint us. Then, perhaps, we won't be so willing to allow "professionalism" to be used as a goad to compel uncompensated overtime and other conditions of employment that no self-respecting tradesman would put up with. We might actually also find a way to have our compensation tied more closely to the value we actually generate, by means of collective bargaining if that is necessary. I know many of us find that distasteful, as do I personally- but it is likely a practical solution nonetheless.

Or not- perhaps that ship has sailed permanently and we're destined to be the janitors of the STEM field forever onward.

No matter- I realized long ago that the only way to earn proper compensation from any kind of technical or creative task was to cut out the middleman as much as possible and find a way to participate more directly in business from an ownership perspective. And to sell a product embodying that work, for what the market will bear, rather than selling man-hours for whatever the market bargains that commodity down to. Those things have made all the difference.
 
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CWB1, I realize there are some that take a dim view of PEs in the USA. There are some who do not. I know some view licensure as a cartel but it is not.

In my 29 years of industry and running my own company, I believe licensure matters as does membership in NSPE. I don't want to hijack this thread with a distracting post but be aware I have thought long and hard about a lot of this including listening to a congressional hearing about licensure. I realize I am one data point but when I go into other engineering firms on behalf of NSPE and hear questions and complaints about ethics problems, I know I am far from alone. Knowing human nature as I do it is not surprising to me either.

I listened to a presentation last night wherein stats were given globally of a shortage of engineers. Much discussion was around the ASCE Infrastructure Report Card: ASCE Infrastructure The PE has been following this for decades and is quite knowledgeable about the subject.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
 
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My apologies Scotty, my previous post failed to mention that this view is common among engineers here stateside.

Not to sidetrack but I would caution comparing private engineering salaries to those of teachers or other govt employees. Aside from envy being one of the seven deadlies, at least here stateside govt salaries have seen significant (some would say unsustainable) increase in recent decades. The fresh grads that took over my parents' classrooms 20 years ago for example started a few thousand higher than my parents retired at, the justification being that the new teachers had education masters' whereas my parents had "applicable" bachelors and were therefore worth more.
 
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I beg to differ with CWB1 who stated this view [that licensure is distasteful] is common among engineers here stateside. His/her statement cites no sources hence I tend to question if it is based on fact.

I just accepted a job offer after trying my hand at an unsuccessful bid at independent consulting and a six-month job hunt. I have to tell you that I now feel like a completely violated piece of meat. Those of you that have NOT had reason to job hunt in the last ten years or so need to know that it no longer matters how well qualified you are. The hiring process is so strife with faulty belief systems and "conclusion jumping" in HR departments, hiring managers, and recruiters, that they are routinely leaving fine candidates in the dust. These people are also marching to the beat of their corporate bean counters who are telling them to get people as cheaply as possible. Furthermore, for months I have been barraged with emails and phone calls from recruiters whose only qualifications to do that job are the ability to find key words on resumes, dial a phone, send boilerplate emails, and convert food, air, and water into CO[sub]2[/sub], urine, and fecal matter. Many of these recruiters, in fact, are not even in North America (I'm in the USA). The common denominator among these recruiters is that they offer jobs with really crappy pay. Also, when you are dropped from consideration (for oh so many reasons), 95% of recruiters will NOT do the courtesy of informing you. For contract roles there were none offering a rate as high as I would work pre-2008. Contracting no longer provides sufficient compensation to make up for the total lack of benefits, holiday, and vacation time. Recruiters clog my inbox and voicemail with jobs in Seattle, Boston, Portland, OR, Southern CA, San Francisco, NYC, etc. offering rates of less than $40/hr where any job in those high-cost cities require 1/3 higher pay to make up for the astronomical COL. As for me, it is insulting for someone to offer a role for anything less than I could earn as a direct employee with equal qualifications and I can tell you that $40/hr is light years away from commensurate compensation for me. Yes, the STEM glut means that there MUST be people accepting these jobs since these jobs would otherwise not be on the market. I must conclude that there are engineers taking these low-paying jobs in the USA because they are either non-citizens hoping to become citizens, fresh graduates unable to find jobs, or simply experienced candidates lacking robust professional networks who found themselves out of work and forced to turn to the job boards. Do engineers in the USA need professional organization? I say definitely so! This is, as I said, to police our own, provide the force of numbers in wage negotiations, and to give the discipline the professional texture it sorely needs. In short, YES, I believe all engineers need to be licensed in order to gain the title of "engineer" and the licensing function needs to double as an advocacy group. Other professions are already successfully at doing this. It needs to happen pronto as the engineering "profession" is now circling the bowl...It looks like engineers in Canada are even further down that helical path than those in the USA.

ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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Only because the thread has wandered a bit, licensure is absolutely NOT needed for lots of industrial exemption jobs; for some reason, PEs keep wanting to forget that only about 20% of all engineers are licensed, and that is primarily what keeps PE salaries from being competed into the ground.

I do analyses, system architecture, requirements management, etc., for which I am well-paid. Nothing to sign; nothing to certify. We once had one engineer on staff with a PE license, which he has never, ever, used.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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CWB1,

No apology needed, I'm sure your opinion is as valid from your viewpoint as mine is from my own viewpoint. :)

In the UK engineering as a profession is crying out for licensure but there are many powerful voices railed against it, not least our own professional bodies who do little to promote the integrity of the professions. My own professional body, the Institution of Engineering and Technology, is now a lost cause, focused on trying to maximise membership revenue rather striving to uphold any technical or professional standard.
 
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IRStuff thanks for the link to the YouTube skit in the British conference room! It's hilarious and so true-to-form.
And lacajun thanks for your link to Dave Steinman's writings. I saved it.

Folks we are obviously not immune from the forces that are reducing our standard of living with the rest of the middle class. This is happening here in the states without question. But what about Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK? In the USA our legally bribed lawmakers and their wealthy benefactors are continuing to "stack the deck" against honest working people like us. As Warren Buffet famously said, "If you're not earning money while you sleep you will work until you die". That quote makes it clear that the system is not set up to reward those who work 9-5, five days a week and otherwise provide an honest day's work (BTW I wish my career was just 40 hrs/week!). But there are things we can do to stop or even reverse the decline in our standard of living. Other professions have organizations whose dual purpose is to keep the profession clean and to give members the the force of numbers to influence compensation and policies having to do with their profession. Why can't we?

ElectroMechanical Product Development
(Electronics Packaging)
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
 
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