Alaska Airlines flight forced to make an emergency landing... 82

[Brian Malone]

1503-44

Are you describing actual steps used by commercial airliner maintenance crews? Or are you stating techniques you have used for general pressure vessel troubleshooting? I work with pressure lines and containers in my industry but this is for benchtop medical/laboratory devices. I hardly believe my tools and techniques would work efficiently for diagnosis of an airliner.

 

[1503-44]

Download Spectroid. It will find your leak, big or small. If aviation tech doesn't know about ultrasonic leak finding or soap bubble tech I'm sticking to trains. It's a 2h flight to the mainland, or a 3day boat ride, so I probably won't be leaving very often,

The pulses at 8000 Hz is me bearly hissing heard over the lower freq noise of a passing car 30m away.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Brian Malone]

Interesting app - thanks!

 

[1503-44]

Welcome. In a quiet night env, it hears everything. What the neighbors are up to, or ocean waves 1.5 km away. I like seeing the Droppler effect of the cars and helicopters going by. Bees come in at 275Hz, house flies at 400+.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Murph 9000]

Right. That's what I have been ranting about. It's entirely the wrong limitation for decompression trouble. Decompression at 35,000 ft directly over JFK would have saved nobody. Alaska Air was very, very LUCKY. Only their passengers were luckier still. They should all go out and buy LottoMillion tickets.

What is your basis for that assertion? Pilots don't suffer from an immediate loss of consciousness at FL350 in the event of loss of cabin pressurisation. It's serious, certainly, but they have training to respond to it and know it's critical to get their oxygen masks on immediately. See the FAA Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge Chapter 17: Aeromedical Factors, page 17-4. They have 30 to 60 seconds of useful consciousness at 35,000 feet, which is sufficient time for the pilots to get their masks on.

Passengers might not fare as well due to lack of training, but it would likely still be survivable for most, even if they failed to don oxygen masks in time. The aircraft would be down at 10,000 feet, where masks are no longer required, within 3 to 4 minutes.

I stopped digging around for a specific incident after finding this one, as it's close enough. Southwest Airlines Flight 1380, a 737-700, experienced uncontained engine failure above 32,000 feet, followed by rapid decompression caused by loss of a window and some other holes in the fuselage from shrapnel. Sadly, there was one fatality, but other than that only minor injuries. They successfully flew a significant distance on one engine after rapid depressurisation and rapid descent.

NTSB Investigation and report: Left Engine Failure and Subsequent Depressurization, Southwest Airlines Flight 1380, Boeing 737-7H4, N772SW

It's reasonably likely that Alaska's MAX 9 would have fared no worse than SWA1380 if it had lost the plug at 35,000 feet.

Edit - prior threads on SWA1380:

thread815-437955
thread815-460717

 

[1503-44]

So, let's just go to 40,000, 50,000? The details are unimportant. I'm not interested in discussing survivability. This is not an X-15 test flight. This is an EXTREMELY UNDERDESIREABLE EXPERIENCE, even if to happens at 100 ft.

So, you are pretty much saying, even if you know the plug blows on this flight, you're going to board and blowing out at 35,000 is perfectly fine for you. Fine. Seat halfway down on the left. I don't like the probability. In my book it's a sure thing, or closer than I'd ever want to get to it, and I'm not boarding. It's not MS Flight Sim.

Its 2024. We been to the Moon 55 years ago. Its 2024 and if I can find a leak with my phone, Alaska and Boeing need a better SOP. Live guinea pigs flights is not the answer to an immenent decompression, even if they limited altitude to 10,000 ft. 3 warnings is a sure thing. Any maintenance tech knows it and trusting passengers deserve better. End of story.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Murph 9000]

No, what I'm saying is that you are wrong in your assertion that "Decompression at 35,000 ft directly over JFK would have saved nobody." It's a planned emergency that every airline pilot trains for, and should generally be survivable. The 737 NG & MAX series have a maximum operating altitude of 41,000 feet; it's also probably survivable at that altitude.

 

[1503-44]

What I'm saying is "so what?".
A probability of 1 of having a decompression emergency is completely unacceptable.
Remembering that training is not guaranteed to give successful results in actual events and that even actual events can not be simulated in training situations. Fear factor for 1.
Whether it is survivable or not is totally irrelevant.
Several potentially deadly mistakes were made.
All Unacceptable.

But yes, I will agree this one was as good as a "planned emergency".
Couldn't have said it better myself.



--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[TugboatEng]

Brian, I see a lot of complaints about prioritizing profit for shareholders contributing to these problems. That's ok to talk about. The loss of talent following the McD takeover, that's ok to talk about. The rapid adoption of DEI is the NEXT problem. That's not ok to talk about for whatever reason.

 

[dik]

Is that ever a neat app... It likely would have found the 'leak'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

I might believe DEI, if Boeing had hired DRI-type inspectors. The problem is that (according to the documentary film) most of the inspectors were let go, whistle blowers fired, etc. Etc. and NOBODY took their place. Not even illegal aliens.

Is there traceable evidence DEI policy is at fault?
OK. Let's see it.


--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Brian Malone]

Tugboat, I am not saying talking about DEI is not okay. I am saying claiming DEI policy has caused or may caused a loss of quality or safety is false. Sitting around bench racing, any number of items can be claimed but when most engineering failures are examined, the fault was not the color, creed, sex or orientation of the designer or team. When the root cause(s) of this plug door issue is fully understood I will be highly surprised and corrected if any factor is found that is DEI driven. As previously stated, I am not a fervent supporter of all DEI policy, but I strongly disagree with anyone claiming it is creating quality or safety failures.

 

[1503-44]

Yeah Dik. Turn the gas stove or fireplace on so low you can't hear it. Check the sensitivity.
I bearly cracked the needle valve of bottle of butane under my torch nozzle, bottom right 3 bars and slowly closed it until I couldn't hear it at all after the lines got lighter, yet it still registered until I turned it the last 5° or so and it cut off entirely.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[TugboatEng]

Is there traceable evidence DEI policy is at fault?
OK. Let's see it.

I did post a link to Boeing's job application site that touted its recent DEI achievements but the post was removed.

 

[dik]

The point I was trying to make was that in a proper environment DEI would not exist. It's presence only prolongs a much bigger problem.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Checked it with a light breath... even the faintest one registers 'bigly'. Have to experiment to see if it can record heartbeat and pulse, or maybe be used to a stethascope (sp?).

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

I revised the foto above for a faint gas flow from a torch. I could not hear it at all at cutoff.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[waross]

financial pressures or motivations lead to decisions that proved bad.

Unfortunately I feel that this describes all of Boing's corporate decisions.
Let's reward customer safety success. Is this about safety or about financial pressures?
Not getting the bottom line results that were expected?
Let's try DEI. Is this about social responsibility or about financial pressures?
Not getting the bottom line results that ere expected?
Let's try......

Does Boing have a fatal problem?
MCAS?
Was this an isolated problem to be solved or a symptom of a much more serious problem?
Debris left in the tanks?
Was this an isolated problem to be solved or a symptom of a much more serious problem?
Loose bolts in the rudder assembly?
Was this an isolated problem to be solved or a symptom of a much more serious problem?
Failure to install the locking bolts in the door plug?
Was this an isolated problem to be solved or a symptom of a much more serious problem?
The discovery of other loose bolts in the door hardware?
Was this an isolated problem to be solved or a symptom of a much more serious problem?

Is it time for the FAA to take a step back and look at the overall picture?
Is Boing no longer capable of building safe aircraft?

I expect a slew of negative responses.
I may save them for a big "I told you so" when the next Boing fiasco materializes. It may be in months, it may be in years, but under present ownership, it is inevitable.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Brian Malone]

I did post a link to Boeing's job application site that touted its recent DEI achievements but the post was removed.

How is a job application posting that mentions DEI acheivements evidence for showing DEI policy has directly lead to bad engineering or is causing quality or safety failures?

Show documented proof of a DEI hire that through their actions/non-actions caused an engineering failure.

 

[1503-44]

DEI evidence needs to be traceable to an incident of at least some negative consequence to be considered as a negative effect. The policy itself probably does have at least some beneficial accomplishments. The other problem is credibility of the sources of the complaints. I see bad work from ... everywhere. Inexperience and failure to recognize situational dangers being the biggest culprits. People just don't realize the water's getting high until their car floats off the freeking road into the culvert, so to speak. And that applies to everybody, all colors, all races, all levels of education and financial capability, myself included. All of a sudden, its chequemate. People just refuse to recognize that they're in over their heads for whatever reason. Falling off a cliff while taking a selfie, etc, etc.


--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."