Alaska Airlines flight forced to make an emergency landing... 82

[waross]

The root of Boing's issues.
The blue collar workers and the engineers are directed by lower level managers.
Those managers respond to higher level managers or they are no longer managers.
This goes up the food chain until we reach the CEO and the CFO. They respond to the board of directors, or they are gone.
The board of directors are selected by the owners, probably large fund managers.
It may be quite difficult to explain to the owners of a company that what the company needs is different owners.
What will eventually happen?
Will passengers start to avoid Boing planes to the extent that airline stop buying them?
Will fines and lawsuits become so onerous as to threaten Boing's Survival.

If you doubt the effect of ownership priorities on the performance of a company, look at
eX-twitter.
Am I over reacting?
If someone had over-reacted sooner, possibly the plug would not have blown off.
And, if someone had over-reacted sooner, possibly there would not have been more loose bolts to discover.


--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Tomfh]

I am saying claiming DEI policy has caused or may caused a loss of quality or safety is false.

Whilst it’s speculative whether it played a role here, it is not “false” to say that DEI initiatives can affect quality. Diversity hiring is what it is.

 

[waross]

DEI?
The implementation of DEI?
Speculation about the effect of DEI?
Just red herrings to divert attention from a serious corporate cancer.


--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[1503-44]

Throw it on the wall and see if it sticks.

I've lived and worked in as diverse as you can get for 30 years. Some companies with 75 different nationalities and languages, of which I was and remain only one. It's been difficult at times, but all efforts I have been involved with did not suffer from their diversity. Arrogance was the worst contributor of all.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[dik]

More scrutiny?

"The head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said he believed there were "significant problems" with the 737-9 Max jet as well as "other manufacturing problems".

The FAA said it would conduct an audit of the plane's production line.

It also plans to review who is in charge of quality oversight.

For years, the FAA has delegated some parts of quality reviewing of planes to Boeing, but the practice has been controversial, drawing repeated warnings of safety risks.

"It is time to re-examine the delegation of authority and assess any associated safety risks," FAA administrator Mike Whitaker said in a statement.

"The grounding of the 737-9 and the multiple production-related issues identified in recent years require us to look at every option to reduce risk. The FAA is exploring the use of an independent third party to oversee Boeing's inspections and its quality system.""

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67960717

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

another 737... maybe not a very 'lucky' aircraft...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67968526

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Tomfh]

Just red herrings to divert attention from a serious corporate cancer.

Regardless of whether it can be attributed to DEI, Boeing's integration of DEI and Climate into its primary corporate goals, alongside safety, during a period of fatal safety crises, is worrying. Why are they shifting corporate focus to diversity and climate when their planes are falling out of the sky?

 

[1503-44]

Can't argue with that Tom. Probably have seen some good benefits to corporate objectives. But they have lost focus on design and safety. That's for sure.

OMG No. Bad timing.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[3DDave]

MCAS became a problem because automation eroded basic piloting skills in a way that wasn't measurable. More automation made operations safer faster than poor skills made them less safe.

AF 447 gave the first clue as to how bad this was going to be. PIA 8303 made this erosion abundantly clear, but a comparison of what was recorded in the three flight FDRs vs. what pilots were expected to do showed just how bad this situation was on the accident flights.

The criminal factor was, having seen that this erosion had taken place at Lion Air, ET302 was dispatched without dealing with it, and then the resulting crash was misrepresented as pilots doing every step in the correct order at the correct time, when not one step taken by the ET302 crew was correct. Ever. As soon as the first automation problem happened, the stall warning, the crew failed to turn off the autopilot and the autothrottle; Day 1 items on stall warning response and both pilots failed. When the autopilot did disconnect the first and only order of business of both pilots was to try to force it back on and they continued to do that, stick shaking and alarm blaring, all the way to the ground.

ET302 could have been dispatched with the trim disabled; let the first officer row the boat as the PIC requests. No chance at all for MCAS to operate. But that would mean that the autopilot could not function. They were clearly terrified to fly without the autopilot.
---
As to the factory floor issues - maybe it's a similar thing. The expected performance of the workers is based on a standard from some time ago and the workers just aren't up to it anymore. There seems to be an America problem when middle class annual incomes used to be 50% of the price of a home and have dropped to 10% because of housing inflation. When a CEO made 20X the median salary in the past and now makes over 300X ** the median salary. It's not clear the workers are fundamentally less capable, just that the sense of accomplishment at producing huge profits for billionaires just doesn't motivate like applying craftsmanship to something they are rewarded for producing.
---
It's not just Boeing ownership. It's the American way of life that has significantly changed, mostly having to do with regulatory capture of the Congress and the White House that have shifted tax laws to make draining the life-blood of companies and their workers towards stockholders and CEOs possible. When Boeing was growing the top tax rate was probably 90% or so, but the tax laws gave breaks to investing in factories. Now every scrap of productivity is taken to the investors as profit and the workers are told to like it or leave. They cannot easily leave because the health care industry has also worked it's magic so that any minor issue could cost $10k - $1M to be treated and the price for individual medical coverage makes it difficult or impossible for 60% of Americans.

Boeing isn't a problem. Boeing is a symptom and a warning flag. Look at the railroads that fight active controls that would have stopped the derailment last year and fight adding hotbox detection systems. They succeed because they have bought the allegiance of lawmakers. Is it their fault for trying or for lawmakers accepting?

**Think of that. A CEO takes home in one year what a mid-level worker would take three centuries to match.

 

[3DDave]

dik,

Cockpit windows on airliners cracking happens with some regularity. There are huge thermal differentials between the inside and the outside with defrost heaters on the inside producing large tension loads in the outer panes of glass. A tiny scratch can be enough to initiate a crack.

See

https://www.reddit.com/r/SweatyPalms/comments/8lhoj2/cracking_windshield_midflight/

(from 2018)and read the comments. It's not normal, but it isn't particularly dangerous. Oh, apparently the aircraft was an Airbus A319.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-cockpit-windshield-breaks-off-idUSKCN1IF0DR/

 

[1503-44]

Is it their fault for trying or for lawmakers accepting?

Both have lost their ethical standards and there is no disadvantage to pursuing profit at any cost.
They take the hit and stock price rises. They get bailouts and stock price rises. Insurance pays out. Insurance is tax deductible. Public pays for higher insurance rates. Limited competition ensures product demand. No downside anywhere.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Brian Malone]

I have no expertise or authority to speak about piloting so I am going use the statements by Capt. Sullenberger from the article I linked in my 1/13/24 8:09 post:
------------
Others have taken a more critical view of MCAS, Boeing, and the FAA. These critics prominently include Captain Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger, who famously crash-landed an A320 in the Hudson River after bird strikes had knocked out both of the plane’s engines. Sullenberger responded directly to Langewiesche in a letter to the Editor:

… Langewiesche draws the conclusion that the pilots are primarily to blame for the fatal crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 302. In resurrecting this age-old aviation canard, Langewiesche minimizes the fatal design flaws and certification failures that precipitated those tragedies, and still pose a threat to the flying public. I have long stated, as he does note, that pilots must be capable of absolute mastery of the aircraft and the situation at all times, a concept pilots call airmanship. Inadequate pilot training and insufficient pilot experience are problems worldwide, but they do not excuse the fatally flawed design of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) that was a death trap.... (Sullenberger 2019)

Noting that he is one of the few pilots to have encountered both accident sequences in a 737 MAX simulator, Sullenberger continued:

These emergencies did not present as a classic runaway stabilizer problem, but initially as ambiguous unreliable airspeed and altitude situations, masking MCAS. The MCAS design should never have been approved, not by Boeing, and not by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)…. (Sullenberger 2019)

In June 2019, Sullenberger noted in Congressional Testimony that “These crashes are demonstrable evidence that our current system of aircraft design and certification has failed us. These accidents should never have happened” (Benning and DiFurio 2019).
-------------

Sullenberger is a renowned pilot of some skill and I interpret his statements to be it is wrong to attribute the 2018 and 2019 crashes totally on pilot error/inexperience, the MCAS system caused the presentation of the flight situation to be different than the actual conditions and MCAS was the fault for making the 737 Max airplane a "death trap".

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I have had 3 windows crack

One on a Q400, and 2 on Jetstream.

They have 10 plus laminates.

Only scary one was when the window heating started arcing

 

[3DDave]

Sullenberger should have talked to the pilots of the first flight and observed what the experienced pilot of the second flight did and commented that the Ethiopians had 100% knowledge of "how it presents."

I have no idea how Sullenberger came to be in that position, except that he was lied to by the original reports on ET-302 and believed them and was never called upon to justify his position when so much money from lawsuits against Boeing was available. It wasn't until 2020 that the Ethiopian FDR was released to show the gross mishandling of the plane, so any 2019 testimony was based on hear-say from the Ethiopians.

Note that Sullenberger kept his mouth entirely shut after the Lion Air crash preliminary report. Didn't say a word. If he was so smart as to identify that MCAS was an inescapable problem, which the first Lion Air incident showed by their 90 minute flight to a safe landing, that is was easily escapable by pilots uninformed about how it worked, then why didn't he say anything?

All that Sullenberger did that was great was deciding to make a water landing rather than try for a runway. That is, he didn't do something stupid.

The emphasis on trim runaway is a lie, baked in a fallacy. Every pitch trim problem will stop when the trim drive hits the trim stops and therefore cannot runaway. He never said how long it would be observed before declaring a trim runaway, but in the accidents it took a trim time of around 30 seconds before the plane became too tough to muscle. At 9 seconds the trim load was getting over 20 pounds vs. the typical thumb and index-finger pressure required. What feedback should a pilot have that trim is a problem? Offsetting that trim force required the use of a thumb.

Sullenberger had 30 years or so to complain that the trim runaway criteria were too vague. He didn't say anything. As far as I know he has never said how trim runaway should be diagnosed. He holds it up as a red herring to distract that the pilots on ET302 went 100% the wrong way on both the stall warning and then MCAS inputs after the way to successfully diagnose and respond was published following Lion Air.

 

[waross]

Worker productivity or competence?
A Texas based company bought into a northern Canada oils sands facility.
They sent some Texas hotshot engineers up north to oversee.
One drop-in questioned some temporary hoarding.
That is protect pumps from the cold.

"Get rid of that mess.
We don't need it.
We get winter in Texas too."
The next cold snap, the plant was shut down by the cold for the first time in its 30 year history.

For years, the standard response to an questionable suggestion?
"Ya. We get winter in Texas too."
Rinse and repeat.
Some years later, I participated in a maintenance shut-down at the same plant.
The shut-down was planned for 6 days.
A hot-shot drop-in from Texas arbitrarily shortened the 6 day shut-down to 5 days.
The result:
A safety shut-down system was completely rewired.
About 1000 feet of cable and many junctions and connections.
Testing and commissioning?
That was day six and never happened.
Did the safety system work as intended?
Who knows.
We won't find out unless there is a critical failure to operate.
Some work was done on a 3000 HP wound rotor motor.
The motor failed to start.
The brushes were removed and were originally scheduled to be replaced on the 6th day.
There was no 6th day.
But trouble shooting and repair was now out of a different budget.
It doesn't matter how competent or responsible a worker is, if a job takes 6 days and the manager reassigns the worker to another task on day six, you get the idea of how management may impact quality.
DEI at Boing?
PR
By the way,

Houston has been keeping a record of its temperatures since 1921. During the first decade of record-keeping, Houston recorded its historical lowest low. This occurred on January 18, 1930, and the temperature was 5 degrees Fahrenheit.

The temperature at that plant right now is minus 47 F with a wind chill of minus 60 F.
But "We get winter in Texas too."

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[FacEngrPE]

From slashdot today

WSJ: Boeing's Fuselage Factory 'Plagued' by Production Problems and Quality Lapses

US Regulator Considers Stripping Boeing's Right To Self-Inspect Planes

... Specifically regarding Spirit AeroSystems, please provide the Committee with an explanation of FAA’s oversight of Spirit’s production system and of FAA’s oversight of Boeing’s supplier control system as it relates to Spirit. Please identify what, if any, improvements in oversight by FAA that you intend to implement to ensure that Spirit’s future performance meets all FAA regulatory requirements. ...

This will get painful. Ignoring quality, just like ignoring worker safety eventually hits the bottom line.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The removal of self inspect will solve the issue.

Unfortunately I don't think they can claim back the bonuses which created this issue.

 

[3DDave]

Cantwell should know.

Cantwell is a longtime Boeing advocate who supported the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018 that changed the certification process to allow for more delegation of regulatory oversight to Boeing and other manufacturers.

Boeing employees collectively contributed nearly $62,000 to her reelection bids since 2015, according to opensecrets.org. A spokeswoman said Cantwell doesn’t take money from corporate political action committees.

Cantwell wrote a key amendment that gave Boeing and other companies authority for approving anything deemed a “low and medium risk” during airplane certification.

https://www.columbian.com/news/2020/jan/21/cantwell-raps-report-on-faa-certification-process/

 

[dik]

Thanks 3DD and Alistair... I wasn't aware of that.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

In some small attempt at fairness, Houston was one entire week below freezing 24/7 in the winter of 1984/5, which killed thousands of fish in Galveston Bay and surrounding water's, and from 1960 to 1990, it froze about every 2 years and snowed maybe once every 5 years, once not melting in an entire day. But I agree that you shouldn't take a Texan's word about anything below 32°F, including LNG piping, especially how to drive on ice, or in rain, except maybe if it involves O-rings, but actually that guy probably was an immigrant, maybe NASA's first DEI employee?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."