Are drawings needed anymore? 1

[dotdash]

In the coming and existing CAD day and age of 3d models as the carrier of information - Do we need drawings anymore?
Are drawings a needed legal document?

 

[KENAT]

There are several threads in GD&T which address this, 2 most recent are:

thread1103-182896 thread1103-182500

For the forseable future there will be areas of industry that will still need drawings, or at least a combination of model and drawing.

There are many things that need to be considered and addressed before going fully 3D, just invoking ASME Y14.41 by itself doesn't seem enough.

That said some areas are already well advanced with implementation of Model Based Definition (MBD), such as aerospace & automotive.

 

[oldfieldguy]

I just got back from a jobsite. We're still using paper out there.

As handy as some of the new computers are, a plain old paper drawing rolled out on the workbench at the jobsite will still be the norm in the field.

That is not to say that the design and approval process may actually take place without a paper drawing, but even that is still a stretch. I still find it a lot easier to examine a paper drawing laid out on my desk, perhaps swapping back and forth between it and several others, while checking references and tags.

old field guy

 

[whyun]

For AEC work, authority having jurisdiction which approve and permit contract documents needs a hard copy to put their permit stamp.

 

[zdas04]

When I write on my screen it gets really messy. I'll be using paper til I die because designs change as long as they are being used.

David

 

[SnTMan]

I read an article in Mechanical Engineering awhile back about how all this 3D model data from years past was in danger of being lost because of discontinued or changed modeling software, incompatible file types, etc.

Legacy used to mean something of value handed down from the past. It now means worthless crap nobody supports

Never have that problem with paper.

Regards,

Mike

 

[ewh]

Depends on the industry. Civil engineering will probably never go for it (though it is a possibility with ever more powerful computers being made), but as KENAT pointed out, it is becoming more common in the the aerospace and automotive industries. PLM software aids in the approval and revision records with electronic reviews and sign-offs, and this practice is recognized as legitimate by the FAA.
That said, most of the MBD files that I have seen do carry along a drawing sheet to show the revision level and to note the interpretation method used, along with other basic information. The product is otherwise fully defined in the model file.
The only way for a large enterprise manufacturing such complex assemblies to stay ahead in the market is to embrace this technology and run with it. Meanwhile, sell your stock in electric eraser and drawing board manufacturers!

 

[ewh]

As to the software becoming obsolete or useless, this is a real problem. A certain large european aerospace conglomerate shot itself in the foot by not running concurrent versions of CATIA, resulting in major delays of their HUGE new jet. Some divisions within the company (but in different countries) refused to invest the time and money necessary to implement V5, so remained on V4. Apparently the electrical harnesses couldn't fit as originally routed due to a size discrepency when V4 files were converted to V5.
Most of the companies I am familiar with are much more cautious than this, sometimes waiting until two or three new versions have come out before updating their software. When they do update, it is considered a cost of doing business to run ALL part files, legacy and current, through a conversion program so that all data is current and usable.

 

[MadMango]

Not just software, but hardware as well. I have several gigs of project data on Iomega Jaz disks (circa 1998), and my internal drive is busted. I can't access it.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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[aardvarkdw]

Paper has it's place. You miss fewer mistakes when you print a drawing to check it. It is easier to mark up a print than a cad file. Many CAD systems are less than adequate for use with Y14.41 and Model only definition. Most companies do not have the file discipline in place to use MBD exclusively.

All that aside, I can see MBD being the standard and for mechanical in the next 5-10 years. Our CAD systems will not be incapable forever, in fact they are getting closer by the year. Most machine shops can program directly from a 3d model already and only use the drawing to determine tolerances, thread callouts and check parts when a cmm is unavailable or impractical. Electronic markup software is currently available (Autodesk provides Design Review for free on their website).

As long as you can completely define the model without a drawing and as long as you can keep track (revision control/legacy storage)of the model files, there is no reason that you need a drawing anymore.

David

 

[electricpete]

All the drawings at our plant are stored electronically.

If I want to get a few pieces of info off a drawing, I'll pull it up on my screen and view it there.

If a piece of equipment breaks and my task for the next hour, day, or week is to understand and troubleshoot that equipment, then I will print out the drawing so I can make notes on it and carry it around with me to the field and to meetings.

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[lz5pl]

All design in my field (control and relay protection) is done via CAD system - in my company it is Elcad. It is much more effective, no comment! But I cannot imagine how to do field work- either commissioning, either maintenance looking on the screen of laptop where this wire is going to

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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[dotdash]

I really appreciate everyone's input. I work as a design checker - I hear a dying breed - with a large class 8 truck OEM. I am constantly hearing arguments for not having a drawing. Of course we have developed processes and database software to carry most of a parts information within that system but not all of the world appears to be able to function from a CAD model. Including our own inspection groups in the US production plant. I am a fan for the a paper drawing but began my career as a CAD designer. So I see the emmence power that way of working can produce.
Again thank you for all of your information.

 

[Senselessticker]

I agree with ewh. It depends on the particular industry. I can't imagine a 3D model of conduit layouts for a building being cost effective, especially for renovations,, upgrades, etc...

I think drawings that illustrate: "Run conduit from point A to point B", will always be needed. In the construction world, I don't 2D drawings dissappearing anytime soon.

 

[csd72]

You may be able to do without drawings in mechanical or aerospace industries, but in construction this is not an option.

I cant imagine all the builders walking around a construction site with their laptop! Also many of the builders that I have worked would not understand 3D drawings.

 

[ajack1]

I totally agree it is industry specific.

In automotive some body panel parts are now so complex only modelled parts work and 2D drawings are already a thing of the past. I am amazed that some companies that produce parts like castings and mouldings still use 2D, I would imagine they will soon fall by the wayside, I simply cannot see how they can remain competitive.

For things like building and electrical it is hard to see 2D drawings going away

 

[Ashereng]

Answer to Question 1: Yes, drawings (I assume you mean paper drawings) are still needed. It is often not practical for everyone to gather around the notebook in the field (assuming you even bring one to the field).

If you have the oppportunity, the next time you go to the field, try NOT bringing a paper copy of a drawing and see if that works. Simple test, yes?

Answer to Qestion 2: Yes, drawings are legal documents. That is why there is an engineer's stamp on it. In all the jurisdictions that I have worked in, submittals to government agencies is always in paper form, stamped and signed.

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[electricpete]

Meanwhile, sell your stock in electric eraser and drawing board manufacturers!

I didn't know there was such as thing as electric erasers.

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[Ashereng]

Electric erasers, and don't forget eraser shields!

Guess you didn't know about that either? ;-)

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[rb1957]

electronic mastering is with us today. sure our office kills more trees than ever, now we also get nice little placards from the paper re-cyclers telling us how much we've saved by recycling (good grief).

sure drawings are the legal document today; there's nothing to stop that changing in the future. sure, they're easier to look at today (compared with a laptop screen), but that can easily change.

i deal more with reports, stress analysis. these are transitioning over to electronic masters, with embedded spreadsheets and digital signatures and date stamps.