ATF v Gear Lube 6

[evelrod]

Has anyone done load and wear tests on ATF vs. conventional and synthetic gear lube lately? I have been using ATF in gearboxes for 40 years (racing applications without mfgr. approval) with NO failures due to oil problems and I would like to know of any research in this area, particularly with respect to the newer syn. oils.

 

[P2andRCM]

Synthetic 75-w90 GEAR LUBE vs UNIVERSAL Synthetic ATF

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 Degree C, cSt (ASTM D445)
15.7 vs 7.5

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 Degree C, cSt (ASTM D445)
113.5 vs 36.0

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)
146 vs 182

Flash Point Degree C[F] (ASTM D92)
198[338] vs 222[432]

Fire Point Degree c[F] (ASTM D92)
216[421] vs N/A

Poor Point Degree C[F] (ASTM D97)
-46[-51] vs -56[-69]

Brookfield Viscosity @ -40 Degree C[F] cP (ASTM D3829)
35,000 vs
vs -10C = 465
-20C =1030
-30C =2505
-40C =7150

Noack Volatility % weight loss (g/100g) (DIN 51581)
11.4 vs 10.8

FOUR BALL WEAR TEST scar diameter in mm
(ASTM D4172B: 40kgf, 150-Deg C, 1800-RPM, 1-Hr)
0.40 vs

(ASTM D4172B: 40kgf, 75-Deg C, 1200-RPM, 1-Hr)
vs 0.40

Lubricants are designed and formulated for their applications and while experimentation is up to the individual caution is advised...

Have A Fine navy Day

 

[evelrod]

THANKS NAVY---I was particularly interested in the four ball wear test ,having been present at a few tests on oil additives (I was sponsered for a bit by Slick 50 people a number of years back). As for experimentation, man, that's what racing is all about! Rod

 

[P2andRCM]

The Four Ball Wear Test is what tells yout the true performance quality of a lubricants - FILM-STRENGTH

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Synthetic Motor Oil

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Tribologist@military.com or Tribologist@americainter.net

 

[evelrod]

OK , NAVY-----try roddav@msn.com and I'll give you the rest. Rod

 

[evelrod]

Hey NAVY, I forgot to say that the Gulf Stream bypass filtration system described on the web is very symilar to the system my dad used on his 1937 Nash. I also used it on my 1949 Mercury back in '57. I don't remember how efficient it was, but it was a REAL pain in the butt to service. We now use Fram HP-1 filters and Oberg filters. We usually change the oil after every race (syn.) and 6000 miles on the trucks (Castrol 20W- 50). All our used oil is sold to a recycler.

Rod

 

[romke]

the load carrying capacity of an ATF will no doubt be lower then with a conventional gear oil (with usually a higher viscosity). However, in most gearboxes, load carrying capacity is not of prime importance and hence ATF's can be used quite well with usually a better cold shift performance. In the long run wear may be somewhat higher, but there are automakers who have employed ATF in manually shifted gearboxes for years (Mercedes-Benz!). For racing applications the outstanding thermal stability and antioxidative properties of an ATF may also be very welcome, together with the improved shift "feel" and, due to the lower viscosity again, sligthly lesser powerloss in the geartrain...and offcourse - gearbox life in racing is counted in hundreds of kilometers and not in 100000's of km.

This alls add up to a very useful alternative to conventional gear oil. If an ATF is really too thin, a 5W-30 engine oil or a modern synthetic SAE 75W-80W gearbox oil might give the extra load carrying capacity you need.

 

[evelrod]

THANKS EVERYONE---for all the info. Based on what I have learned here and, based on prior experience, I believe I will continue to use ATF in my modern gearboxes. Some of my antique autos will still use 80W-90 (pre War).

I have also been using engine oil in my British cars for as long as I can remember (with the exception of Ford/Lotus UK in which I use ATF). The 1963 Austin/Cooper I am building currently is an extreme example of engine oil in the gearbox.(For you who are not familiar with the Mini, the engine AND gearbox share the same oil)

I found, in addition to MB, Ford uses ATF in its BW T-5 gearboxes. Most likely, it is used by other manuf.


Rod

 

[Douglas401]

In order to meet the new high temperature oxidation stability tests and operate at extremely low temperatures most ATFs were completely reformulated [basestocks and additive systems] a few years ago. The lower viscosity will mean less viscous friction. The wear patterns in a well designed and built mechanical system should not suffer in short term racing as long as you change often and check the gears for wear. Keep it clean and change often.
DA Wallace, VP
Technology

http://www.bioblendlubes.com

 

[anizard]

Hi, just joined this group, and found this thread. Just to confirm (I work for one of the three suppliers of lubricant additives) and I can tell you that some manufacturers in Europe have already accepted candidate oil for Manual Transmission Fluid (MTF) based on ATF technology (with an extreme pressure boost). Main driver is oxidative resistabce, because temperature in these gearboxes is much higher these days due to the design of European cars, and also provide additional fuel economy. One day, when petrol will be at the same price on both sides of the Atlantic, this may be of interest to US car makers.

 

[MadJac]

Evelrod,

Engine and gearbox share the same oil. Good concept.

 

[evelrod]

I did not realize this thread was still up.
MadJac---"good concept"---Only if you like these small, compact little pocket rockets. It is still quite innovative in concept but "good" just doesn't drip off the tongue. To race my little Mini Cooper requires a great deal of effort in keeping the oil cool and clean. Air in the oil does nothing for cooling or lubrication of the bearings. Having said that, there are few automobiles on the market that can equal a hot little Austin Cooper S for driving FUN!!!

Rod

 

[klyde]

A note of interest: The Robinson R-22 helicopter uses ATF for the blade grip lubrication. These bearings have a high centrifugal load and only move slightly back and forth. Brinelling is a threat. I have used the Mobil ATF in my blade grips on my experimental helo for approximately 50hrs and no problems. Robinson, of course has thousands of hours on theirs.