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Baltimore Bridge collapse after ship collision 125
- Thread starter Tomfh
- Start date
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1
- #141
ALK2415 (Structural)28 Mar 24 14:47
Your black and white view on thing lack suitable nuance and understanding of the bigger picture.
I question the 'experts'. So should you. We also have experts on this forum.ALK2415 said:
If we are talking about sabotage 99.99% of our infrastructure is not protected against sabotage. And plenty is remote and has no protection, any motivated party can cause damage with explosives, oxy or even saws. Regarding accidents... Well pretty much every movement of vessels of this size can have serious consequences if things go awry.charliealphabravo said:
Your black and white view on thing lack suitable nuance and understanding of the bigger picture.
...maybe a lot less likely than an errant cargo ship?
Maritime insurance has to change. The ship owner has to be liable, rather than the public. If no insurance, then no entrance to the inland waters. The insurance has to be one that the insurance company 'cannot wiggle out of'. It has to be total coverage of events, and for full value (no freak of nature, or 'Act of God' exclusions.
Any barriers have to be well placed to notify the cargo container ship well in advance of the bridge. Maybe specialised 'lanes' or the use of a pilot that knows the watercourse (didn't work so well in Suez, but I've never had any confidence in their skills).
![[pipe]](/data/assets/smilies/pipe.gif "[pipe] [pipe]")
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Ships are built to the rules of classification societies. Nothing more and nothing less. Regulatory bodies such as US Coast Guard lean heavily on class societies to make rules as they don't have sufficient knowledge. Class societies are hired and there are many so there is competition to make low cost ships. Ships have extremely limited redundancy.
charliealphabravo
Structural
human909 said:
A risk matrix provides the opposite of a "black and white" assessment. Unfortunately, this structure was not protected against the most critical and obvious eventuality, one with the most devastating consequences, and the one with the simplest and cheapest protection method. A failure on all three axes.
Concur... but there are some things and loadings that cannot be protected against and that other options must be considered.
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
The FAA KNEW 100% that anyone except flight crew in the cockpit was a bad deal and waited for 4 aircraft to be hijacked before requiring locks on doors and keeping hijackers away from the pilots.
This tragic cost was a half dozen or so lives and a large amount of inconvenience and tax money to replace the bridge.
The 4 planes cost 3000 lives, more than 3000 service member lives, 100s of thousands of civilian lives, millions of people displaced and likely eight trillion US dollars.
The FAA simply chose to do nothing about it.
But for structures, it's the difficulty of preparing for those who plan to do damage that's a problem without good solution.
The tragedy here is this bridge has been in place since the Sunshine Skyway Bridge disaster 42 years ago, plenty of time to have put into place the same protections the Sunshine Skyway Bridge now has.
This tragic cost was a half dozen or so lives and a large amount of inconvenience and tax money to replace the bridge.
The 4 planes cost 3000 lives, more than 3000 service member lives, 100s of thousands of civilian lives, millions of people displaced and likely eight trillion US dollars.
The FAA simply chose to do nothing about it.
But for structures, it's the difficulty of preparing for those who plan to do damage that's a problem without good solution.
The tragedy here is this bridge has been in place since the Sunshine Skyway Bridge disaster 42 years ago, plenty of time to have put into place the same protections the Sunshine Skyway Bridge now has.
Murph 9000
Computer
dik said:
Raising or removing the cap on marine liability will be paid for by the general public. Ship owners / operators will be hit by significant increases on insurance, and just pass that on to the shippers, who will ultimately pass that on to the public at the cash register. Insurers will make a bit more money out of it, as they will err on the side of profit, rather than just covering the expected liability.
Retiredat46
Member
Live drone camera coverage at
charliealphabravo said:
I just want to add some nuance to this
![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
. The ship hit the pier and a relatively small part of the bridge. From what I have seen I would say that the bridge failed because it lost its support. It seems to have dropped mostly downwards.Most of the impact energy was handled beneath the water surface. Perhaps the pier was part of a much larger structure. I am just speculating since I have no more information than the videos.
dailymail.co.uk - Dali cargo ship suffered 'severe electrical problem' while docked ...
I don't know anything about how ship resources are distributed but this seems more like electrical issues impacting mechanical side rather than a drive train issue.
dailymail.co.uk said:
I don't know anything about how ship resources are distributed but this seems more like electrical issues impacting mechanical side rather than a drive train issue.
Yup... but less directly than the current method and by those that are using whatever the cargo is. In addition, if some items become more expensive it cause others to reconsider if they really need that object.
It's not passed on to the public, in general, but mostly to those that would want the commodity. This is a little more fair.
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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
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1
- #153
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
ALK2415 said:
Not sure what you're referring to here. Please explain.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
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1
- #155
As has been pointed out repeatedly in mass media, container ships have been getting larger and larger and HUGE-ER!
And that has been happening over the past 50 years, or so.
So, although it's a surprise to mass media, it wouldn't be a surprise to anyone dealing with ocean shipping. Like people who are in charge of a bridge, which such ships pass under. And people in charge of the safe operation of that bridge.
With 50 years of warning, nobody thought that this bridge needed a little attention?
More to the point, who would that "nobody" be? Or is it really nobody?
Since the Coast Guard should be guarding our coast, and these bridges ARE on our coast, and since there IS a matter of national security here, I think maybe the Coast Guard should be expanded just a little, to encompass inspection and modification of these bridges. Their military authority might come in handy. Oh, yes: The Corps of Engineers should be their technical advisors.
Or, of course, we could do nothing. Such a bad-luck circumstance is indeed extremely unlikely to repeat itself, so maybe doing anything is uncalled for.
Just a thought,
spsalso
And that has been happening over the past 50 years, or so.
So, although it's a surprise to mass media, it wouldn't be a surprise to anyone dealing with ocean shipping. Like people who are in charge of a bridge, which such ships pass under. And people in charge of the safe operation of that bridge.
With 50 years of warning, nobody thought that this bridge needed a little attention?
More to the point, who would that "nobody" be? Or is it really nobody?
Since the Coast Guard should be guarding our coast, and these bridges ARE on our coast, and since there IS a matter of national security here, I think maybe the Coast Guard should be expanded just a little, to encompass inspection and modification of these bridges. Their military authority might come in handy. Oh, yes: The Corps of Engineers should be their technical advisors.
Or, of course, we could do nothing. Such a bad-luck circumstance is indeed extremely unlikely to repeat itself, so maybe doing anything is uncalled for.
Just a thought,
spsalso
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
In reality, the Army Corp of Engineers is generally responsible for maintaining the nation's various navigable waterways, be it a river, channel or harbor (my Army Reserve time was in the Corps of Engineers).
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Spalso, the jumbo-ification of container ships is actually a very recent trend starting. There was a sudden jump in size between 2006 and 2011 with the Maersk Triple E setting the standard. There was a massive building campaign for ships this size and they started becoming common around 2015. There has not been 50 years for infrastructure to catch up.
At least the Triple E was a twin screw ship which would have prevented this incident altogether.
At least the Triple E was a twin screw ship which would have prevented this incident altogether.
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