Baltimore Bridge collapse after ship collision 125

[Tomfh]

https://amp.9news.com.au/article/b73620ea-64ab-4253-8cb0-37102418fcab

 

[SwinnyGG]

He is a monied entrepreneur.

He is that, no doubt.

Preface: I'm no fan. I think his rash public takes on all manner of things demonstrate a remarkable level of arrogance and simultaneously a remarkable lack of self awareness..

With that said, I have been in very detailed technical meetings with Musk- in my past life in the robotics and process automation industries, I worked at a company that sold a great deal of equipment to Tesla. We developed several custom machines for them, and Musk frequently sat in on technical meetings as we were developing processes and debugging prototype builds.

It was very clear from the first meeting that Musk had come prepared, and was well versed enough in the technical issues we were resolving to not only understand clearly what we were talking about, but also to ask intelligent questions, make very detailed technical suggestions, and provide clear direction on the path he envisioned from prototype to deployment. He also listened well, and deferred to our engineers when they were able to back up their opinions with data. Precisely what I would expect from a highly effective engineering manager. In my personal experience he demonstrated a very strong understanding of engineering process statistics, material science, process automation programming, machine design for cost effectiveness, the list goes on. He was an expert at nothing, but was at least fluent in just about everything.

You can say all you want about his persona and I won't disagree, but it's a fact that he has an engineering mind.

 

[3DDave]

To the outside public he has done an exceptional job of hiding his engineering prowess. I'm a bit influenced that his PayPal windfall was the result of being dragged into a deal and not his business acumen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal#Early_history

I had some respect early on for his apparent willingness to camp out in the Tesla factory so that decisions, good or bad, could be made and judged for effectiveness in short order, a big advantage in cutting the management jungle.

I liked that he defended the SpaceX engineers after their Thai cave rescue contribution was questioned, though he turned that into a PR debacle.

He seemed more an Edison type - able to create an inventive organization by finding disaffected brilliant engineers who needed the funding to get enough traction, but damn if something seems to have happened to drain all that enthusiasm straight to the toilet for me.

From the outside it seems like his progress isn't the result of a great understanding and is, instead, more the result of just banging against a problem with a lot of money and other smart people until it is solved.

The launch platform, a well understood tech for example, that was literally blown to pieces by the rocket exhaust, damaging the rocket, seems like a great example of that. Is there going to be a breakthrough in flame trench technology? Or that tunnel under Las Vegas? Or the evacuated tube-train? Or brain research?

It's tough to reconcile these with engineering brilliance and it fits better that he has a really good memory (and has investors with a shared interest) that covers his moderate common sense. In his explanation of cavitation in that video it came across to me as a ChatGPT output rather than an expression of fundamental understanding.

I don't include his Twitter to X conversion - he has enough FU money and he wanted to screw a large number of people and did so; no engineering was part of that decision so it's not something I consider. It would have been nice to pay his bills, but the damage to Twitter isn't a great loss.

Lucky guy, has done some very interesting things; has made a huge fortune and made others wealthy as well without going out of his way to do so using some vast deceit (looking at Theranos and Wall Street manipulations) but I don't feel like he'd be able to run the numbers on a design or do more than a rough outline of a systems specification.

"a highly effective engineering manager" is exactly where I would peg him; just not a highly effective engineer.

 

[FacEngrPE]

"a highly effective engineering manager"

are rare. I have worked with a few. It is not a skill set that occurs with a non engineer MBA (opinion). Engineers that take the MBA class after being an effective engineer with responsible charge are more likely to be effective engineering managers.

I have never met Mr Musk, and given geography am unlikely to do so. From afar I see both successes and failures both fueled with lots of money. I also see a personality that is either admired or hated.

I think colonizing Mars is possible eventually, not likely in my or his lifetime, but the path will include many interesting and useful discoveries.

Now lets get back to unstopping the Port of Baltimore.

Port of Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland USA | StreamTime LIVE

 

[Nukeman948]

https://www.facebook.com/USACEBaltimore

Oh yeah, just lift that twisted mess up, brush off the mud, send it to Bubba's alignment shop, and set it back in place so the real inspectors and engineers can certify its safety in 6 months time. Should be just as easy as colonizing Mars.

[sub]
[/sub]​

 

[dik]

Gord Gilbert, one of the finest Architects I knew, who was project architect on the airport at Kathmandu, the Cornwall Centre, and the Toronto Skydome had a basic technical degree from Ryerson, in Toronto. He was world class.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[3DDave]

That image appears to be a composite of an above water lidar scan and a below water sonar scan. The depth in the channel is 50 feet deep, giving a sense of scale as to the size of the parts that are still in the air.

The detail in the sonar portion is impressive.

 

[zeusfaber]

Genuinely impressive - although the difference in resolution (<2 ft in the sonar portion) coupled with the yellowish colouration makes it look as if the structure has been underwater for twenty years.

That's a mess.

 

[KevinK2]

The recently opened channel has a usable depth of 11 ft, and a second one will be 15 ft deep. For comparison, the wrecked Dali container ship has a maximum draft of 49 ft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Dali

Is there a potentially deep part of the channel, ~closer to the ship, that could allow much more depth than 11 or 15 ft? I could not find an image showing variations in the channel depth at the bridge locations, like a contour map.

PS: still need help on quoting posts

Kevin Kelleher, P.E. (retired)
Internal Mechanical Eng'g Consultant
DuPont ESD Specialists

 

[3DDave]

copy / paste / select pasted material / click quote button (little person with balloon over their head) and fill in name.

Also - the "[" and "]" need to be on both ends of each "quote" and "/quote" to work.

 

[LittleInch]

Did the ship rise up as it hit the shallow water lifting the bridge off its support and is now stuck fast?

I think in that original video you can actually see the ship lift a bit before it collides with the concrete bridge support.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Murph 9000]

I doubt that they will want to allow any large ships through the deep channel while Dali is still there, even if they manage to clear most of the bridge. Although she's well to the side of the channel, she is still restricting the available width of deep channel, it's increased risk. Additionally, they probably don't want the wash from large ships acting on the various work barges and support vessels or Dali when she's sitting on the gas pipeline.

They need to clear both the wreckage and the ship before it's safe to resume normal navigation in the main channel, in my opinion. The deep channel is only approximately 1-2 cables wide (0.1-0.2nm), which is not a lot for big ships. It's roughly 2 cables wide between the dolphins, but they sit outside the channel.

Here are the NOAA charts covering the area (12281 gives you the detail, the others are for anyone who wants to look beyond the harbor):

12273 - CHESAPEAKE BAY, SANDY POINT TO SUSQUEHANNA RIVER
12278 - CHESAPEAKE BAY, APPROACHES TO BALTIMORE HARBOR
12281 - BALTIMORE HARBOR

Soundings (depths) are in feet above MLLW (the mean lowest tide over time), but there's not much tidal range. The largest tidal range at Fort McHenry is only around 1.7 feet.

 

[KevinK2]

Murph 9000 "I doubt that they will want to allow any large ships through the deep channel while Dali is still there ... "

Excellent depth map of this channel. It shows just 33 ft depth just outside of the supports for the channel. The maximum draft for the Dali is 49 ft, and it's possible it's bottomed to some degree.

Kevin Kelleher, P.E. (retired)
Internal Mechanical Eng'g Consultant
DuPont ESD Specialists

 

[MTNClimber]

I brought in the available lidar data into CAD last week. Here is a screenshot of the contours referenced to NAVD88 (US FEET). There's a deep depression just northwest of the bridge pier that I'm assuming is part of that utility channel cutting SW to NE.

 

[dold]

Looks like the NOAA charts don't show the exact location of the gas pipeline. Just a generic "pipeline and cable area":

 

[Nukeman948]

It is my understanding that the little boat near the bow of the Dali is the survey crew that was sent there on Tuesday afternoon to plot the exact location of the pipeline in relation to the ship. It makes sense that the gas line would be on the opposite side of the "cable and pipeline area" as the power lines. Image taken from the New York Times.

[sub]
[/sub]​

 

[Brian Malone]

Is the cylindrical item to the left side of Nukeman's photo one of the protection dolphins? If so, in comparison to the Dali, it looks like it had little chance to have been effective for any true protection for the bridge against a ship this size.

 

[Richard Baum]

Proceedure to transit under the Tasman Bridge was or still is for years after it was repaired!
1/: block both sides and all lanes with police cars for the transit duration as one car went past the cars stopped on bridge using the wrong side of road and was unable to stop.
2/: All ships need to maintain enough speed to enable steerage during transit.
The big question always will be? If the Dali had maintained ahead power with the ability to maintain steerage would it have missed the bridge.

 

[TugboatEng]

Yes, unless you believe the conspiracy theories.

 

[SwinnyGG]

If the Dali had maintained ahead power with the ability to maintain steerage would it have missed the bridge.

This isn't a question at all, let alone 'the big question'. All indications are that prior to loss of power, the ship was operating and navigating in a completely normal way. The harbor pilots aboard would not have piloted the boat into the bridge pier, period.

This was not an intentional act. Anyone who thinks it was, is wrong.

 

[Richard Baum]

The Dali was most likely operating full astern with the anchor dropped.
this means that it would yaw to starboard with a loss of steerage.
If the engine had been slow ahead and anchor up the ship would have maintained stearage and missed the bridge.