Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia 1

[IRstuff]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55601909

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[RedSnake]

I gave one of my ex:es a blue eye once.
We worked in the same place, his colleagues and mine thought it was hilarious, they thought it was because he locked me in the bedroom 2 times! when he worked the morning shift and I worked afternoons.
So I had to call him and tell him to come home and let me out.
But nothing was true.
The third time I realized it was my Dobermann Evito who tried to open the bedroom door to get in by jumping on the handle after he went to work and the key was in the lock, so he missed and turned the key looking me in.
And the ex just happened to get in the way of my elbow. ;-)

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[IRstuff]

I hope you are no longer in that house; it sounds like a fire hazard

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[RedSnake]

I took the keys out of the locks.
It have actually been a fire here too, but i was 100 miles away then, hade to move out for more then 9 month, before being able to move back in again. :-(

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[dik]

I think every firetruck should have a package of hotdogs and a bag of marshmallows on the front seat.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[RedSnake]

No one would have wanted to grill sausages or marshmallows on that fire. ;-)
When the fire brigade came out of town over the fields, they said what the hell is it, that is burning and what they saw was this.

A construction company had set up a whole pile of styrform awning insulation boards at the gable end of the house and some kids had lit a fire so they started burning.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

FAA just released an AD to inspect the flap synchro wire on all classic variants.

What it does I have no clue

 

[dik]

synchronises the flap, of course...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Lou Scannon]

...lest they function as ailerons

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

nah

They are run off torque tubes and hydraulics on them, there is asymmetry sensors which will cut the hydraulics and lock them in place if the torque tubes break. But its a electrically controlled mechanical hydraulic system.

Its more how the flaps would have a link to the auto throttle.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

here is a pic of the system.

Slats are on another system

 

[TugboatEng]

Question, can a 737 land without with 0 flap as in the system has failed to operate?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

yes all aircraft can. You are going significantly faster than with them. Almost but not quiet exceeding the tyre limiting speed and you need an extremely long runway. And its part of the 3 year cycle in the sim for pilot to land without them.

I have only had to do it once in real life but that was with a turbo prop Jetstream 32 which is certified to land zero flap normal operations but we never did because it eats brakes and tyres . Normally with that we would use 900 meters of runway flap 25 with zero I used over 2000meters and had full beta rev in down to 70 knots. With medium jets its classed as a none normal emergency procedure and your talking over 3000 meters of runway. The heavy's its a major emergency and will more than likely leave you with a plane with tyres blown out possibly on fire and in the retard zone off the end of the runway.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Just had a look at the A220 books

The landing distance required wet runway 15 deg C QNH 1013 calm wind is 2.1 times that required for Flap 4 which is the normal landing flap. And we will be going at 54 knts faster than at flap 4.

Tyre limit is 195 knts

At 55 tons we would normally need 1910 meters and V ref 136 knts.


With 0 flap we would need 4100 meters and V ref would be 190 knts according to my performance app.

O could go and find 737 classic numbers but A220 is easier for example and i am 100% sure that the above is correct.

Edited to add I have Just been thinking what would actually need to be wrong to even attempt a landing with the above conditions on the A220.

We would need a fire to force us to land ASAP and not burn the tanks down to nearly dry which would remove 8 to 10 tons off the landing weight.

We would need a major electrical issue which would take 3 main AC power sources off line.

We would need the emergency battery bus offline.

The ram air turbine emergency back up hydraulic and electric power source would also have to fail.

The 2 main flap control system would have to be out and the alternate system.

But this is a modern fly by wire machine. The 737 is a 1960's Frankenstein design.

To be honest on fire with that lot going on personally I would be putting serious thoughts to ditching. Realistically real life its extremely unlikely to occur. But we do see this stuff in the simulator but the learning points are more about crew interaction and working together to get the best solution than training to be prepared for such an event.

 

[dik]

Wow... some guys have all the fun.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Personally I do find it quiet good fun...... in the sim...

 

[TugboatEng]

For us nautical types, I have always heard the sim is quite stressful. I'm not deck side so I don't know but the story is that if you wreck in the sim you get an investigation and it will affect your license. My colleagues in school always despised the simulator.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

When you first start out and everything is very new it is very stressful.

When your new you don't know or understand the soft skills and you have to think what your doing and what your going to do next. Your also poo scared you will loose your license because of a brain fart mistake.

I have been flying now 21 years and 19 years commercially and 17 years as a Captain and done various training roles. So I know what people are looking for and know that the biggest crime is not communicating. The examiners don't care about brain fart mistakes as long as you communicate that you have done them and then sort them out.

You also build up muscle memory and a third sense what you should do... Which is just experience and there is only one way to get it and that's by screwing up and flying. The problem occurs with repeat mistakes of the same type. The system after that can become untuck and the Dash crash in the USA has highlighted and they still haven't managed to develop a system to allow company's to see long term training issues over a pilots career so some people seem to float and job change every couple of years just before the Training boss has lost patience in them and is ready to fire them.

They actually tailor the sim to your experience level so the first session after qualifying they are very gentle with the first officers and only give them a small amount of rope to hang themselves with. 2-3 years down the line they will ramp the pressure up and start the are they ready to be a captain process.

Two old hairy aviators in the sim together as partners they will throw the book at you and all of you will have a great time. And when we finish early we won't be flying under london Bridge for fun there will be usually some extreme edge of envelope stuff we want to have a shot at.

But I have never had a failed sim or had a two hour debrief after one. Those pilots that have, may find the whole thing a lot less fun than I do.

 

[LittleInch]

Alastair - Do you mean this bloke?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremy...d-confused-before-crash-ntsb-report-suggests/

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I was meaning the Colgan 3407 flight, but your example is good as well.

 

[LittleInch]

Start a new thread somewhere - The pub or somewhere. Just because it was a 737 max that forced down doesn't mean it belongs here.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.