co-worker non claiming all hours worked 33

[shacked]

So, I work in a small structural engineering office where everyone knows everyone else. My boss owns half of the office that we work out of, which is located in a very nice area. Therefore our overhead is fairly high, which explains why my boss is always pushing us to "Get it out" or complaining that we didn't make any money on this or that job.

To make matters worse, one of the other engineers does not clock all the hours that he works. Since we are paid hourly this makes me look like an asshat, because I clock all my hours therefore it takes longer for me to complete a project. Of course this other guy is the bosses golden boy, but I think he is just kissing ass by not logging all his hours.

He told me the other day that sometimes when he is working on a project and the phone starts ringing off the hook, and he gets tied up for an hour or two answering questions from contractors, architects... that he doesn't feel that he should clock those hours on the project that he is working on. Of course he shouldn't, log the hours under general office time.

Any suggestions as to how I should handle this?
Oh, not sure if the boss knows this, but I am pretty damn sure it is obvious.

 

[casseopeia]

yeah shacked, don't get all butt-sore. Show that assclown you mean business.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[macmet]

When I started working, we were busy and there was only me and one other guy to share most of the work. He and I both worked 60-hour weeks. Sometimes I did things that weren't typically part of my job description, sometimes he did. One time I asked how he dealt with it, and he said he normally worked between 600-700 hours of unpaid overtime a year. He’s been working there for 20 years.

We are supposed to get a bonus based on performance and company success. That was one of our busiest years in the last 15+. When bonus time came, no one got a dime, but a month later my boss got a new expensive "company" racecar. (My boss is not the guy I was putting all the extra overtime hours in).

Anyway, after that I stopped working those hours. I’m paid for 40 hours, and I work 40 hours. I will work extra if something I did took longer than it should have, or someone in the field needs office support, but I will not put in week after week of that for nothing.

Now if I’m given a project with an unrealistic timeline I come out and say it. That guy who I worked all the overtime with, doesn’t. And he’s still working 60 hour weeks, killing himself, trying to keep up.

So my point is, if he's working for free, let him. Do your job and let him worry about doing whatever he has to do so he can sleep at night. Bosses will take advantage of workers who work for free.

 

[JAE]

Message to leaders of firms out there:

If you always treat your kid as a child, they'll never grow up.

If you don't treat your employees as professionals, with professional respect and offer credit where credit is due, they'll stop behaving professionally and start looking more and more like a union worker bee.

 

[Ron]

Well said, JAE.

 

[macmet]

JAE, that is nicely put. If my boss had that mentality I'd be working a lot harder for him... and I probably wouldn't be third in seniority with only 4 years experience.

 

[shacked]

Thanks all for your comments. Ya, I see all your points and it has put some fire under my ass to start studying harder for the PE.

Ron, I feel that I must respond to your "hijack".

I see your point as to the professionalism and work ethic but there are some other points that I will have to disagree with you about. you said, "One of the worst things that ever happened to our profession was when the Supreme Court decided that we had to remove the bidding prohibition from our Code of Ethics."

Please explain why this is bad. To me it sounds great.

How else would a single engineer working out of his home be able to compete with other firms if they all couldn't bid?

Not everyone wants to work at some mega-corpo suit & tie office. There are people like myself that would rather have a life that isn't centered around working 50+ hours a week in order to have a lot of money and all the latest trendy crap.

I would much rather go to work in shorts, take a long lunch & catch a few waves, then maybe finish up a project later that night. Ya, I get my work done, and I take a lot of pride in doing a good job, but I don't feel that need to waste my entire life working so much and not enjoy life now. Who knows I may die in a car accident tomorrow.

Other then that, I am in agreement with you, and no need to apoligize for hijacking my thread. I believe that this encourages people to talk more about various topics affecting our profession.

 

[macmet]

"I would much rather go to work in shorts, take a long lunch & catch a few waves, then maybe finish up a project later that night. Ya, I get my work done, and I take a lot of pride in doing a good job, but I don't feel that need to waste my entire life working so much and not enjoy life now. Who knows I may die in a car accident tomorrow."

Genius. I love that paragraph. I learnt that the hard way.

 

[Ron]

Shacked...why would you want to take the low bid for professional services? Would you do so for medical professional services? Legal services?

Professional engineering services should be qualifications based, not bid items. As I noted, I do construction forensics...I see the poor result of low bids every day. The result can be catastrophic.

As for working in the "mega-corp suit and tie office"...been there, done that as they say. I couldn't buy into the "corporate control" thing, and fought it as I progressed up the corporate ladder. So I left that world and started my own business...never regretted nor looked back. I worked out of my house to start. I charged the same rates as when I was in the corporate world...because my clients bought my time, whether in the corporate world or by myself.

I once had a partner who said that he would bust his ass until the wind hit 30 mph....then I could find him on his sailboard. I respect that. Nothing wrong with it.

 

[SKIAK]

Before making any suggestions, this is my take on the billable hours. I'm 2 years out of school. My boss knows this and thats why my hours are billed less than his, and my paycheck is smaller than his. With experience comes knowledge, efficiency, and hopefully a larger paycheck. If I'm at work for 8 hours I bill for 8 hours. Sometimes I'm more productive than others, but thats exactly why my time is worth less than boss. Today I was at work for 9 hours but billed 8. I suppose its for my own peace of mind.

If you feel like you need to do something to try and remedy the situation I would suggest, like others have, to bring it up with the boss in front of the other guy. Of course you know your boss and the other guy better than I do, so I think you should be careful not to tick anybody off as I imagine that this would only make the situation worse.

Otherwise let it go. I doubt that this confrontation will cause everybody to see the light and end with a group hug. Jerks are jerks, pointing out to a jerk that he/she is a jerk usually just makes him/her more of a jerk. If its the kind of work situation now where your boss will promote the other guy/gal for working "unfairly" for free, then whats it going to be like 5 or 10 years from now? Maybe its worth it, maybe not. I don't know.

My suggestion: let it go, focus on yourself. Conduct your work as you see responsibly fit and I hope your boss will respect you for that... its kinda a crap shoot if you ask me.

 

[Ron]

Finishing my last thought...

My partner was very responsible...he achieved the right to be so independent by his work ethic earlier in his career, and the fact that he would coordinate his play time and work with each other...not leaving clients hanging. In my opinion, you can't start your career with that attitude, but at some point, you might be able to enjoy that freedom.

Earn it first, then enjoy it. Good luck.

 

[moltenmetal]

A professional does not give away their work for free lest it be pro-bono work of a charitable nature.

Nobody here is quibbling about putting in some extra hours to fix a screw-up, to meet a deadline, to help out a deserving client or to learn something new. What we're talking about is the expectation on the part of some engineering employers that a 40 hour work week reallly means 50 or 60 hours EVERY WEEK! The ones who set 100+% utilization targets for their staff, such that every proposal, training session, staff meeting etc. must be done on uncompensated overtime! Sustained practice under those conditions IS unethical UNLESS that extra time is compensated for in some meaningful way: straight or overtime pay for the extra hours, a (far) higher than industry average base salary, time in lieu, bonuses, profit sharing, an ownership stake, or something else mutually agreeable to employer and engineer. Clearly, compelling subordinate engineers to work under those conditions is similarly unethical.

A professional is, by definition, someone who does something for a living. An amateur does the same thing purely for love. Those of you who claim that giving away your time to your clients or to your employer routinely is part of being a professional are not advocating professionalism- rather, what you are advocating is amateurism!

I love engineering- it ideally suits my interests and aptitudes, and according to both bosses and clients I'm VERY good at it. You could even say that I love my job. But I NEVER work for free, nor do my subordinates. Each of us gets a fair share of the profit that our work generates, and when we're doing our jobs well we are VERY satisfied with that compensation for any extra time or effort we put in. When we're not generating a profit and hence our fair share is zero, we're motivated to FIX that situation for our mutual benefit!

To those of you who don't like the use of the word "unethical" in relation to the giving away or compulsion of uncompensated professional engineering services: the Code of Ethics of Professional Engineers Ontario, section 7, includes the responsibility of every professional engineer to "uphold the principle of adequate compensation for engineering work". Umm, last I checked, "squat" or "brownie points with the boss" are not considered adequate compensation!

 

[oneintheeye]

Ron, in reply to all of your posts surely one of the reasons that fees are so low is that firms are bidding jobs at lower knowing that they'll get 'free overtime' hence the average hourly rate they pay is less. i.e. wage / 60 hours of work rather than 40. It is people who do that free time that are responsible for reducing fees and engineers pay below that of tradspeople (i know enough to know how much they can earn). I and most people I know get paid or time off for additional hours, hence all hours worked are then booked to a contract. Helps monitoring also. I'm UK here but only after a certain level is overtime free. Being a professional is being skilled and qualified not a sucker.

 

[KENAT]

"brownie points with the boss"

In many places those 'brownie points' are linked to pay raises, promotions etc. So arguably they can be linked to adequate compensation in a round about way.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[phalkor]

"i haven't clocked my hours before. because i was learning. i shouldn't charge for learning. "

If that were the case, I would almost never charge hours for anything. Learning is my job. I find it confusing to think that if I'm learning I'm not working.

 

[moltenmetal]

KENAT said "In many places, "brownie points" are linked to pay raises, promotions etc."

I don't disagree- in MANY places that may well be true.

In MOST places, though, that link is tenuous and unreliable at best. And it disappears entirely with the departure of the boss...

I'll take my "brownie points" in cash, thanks.

Relying on some boss's ability to notice, recognize, remember and ultimately REWARD my extra effort at a later date without prior agreement (and the institutional authority to carry through I might add) has not proven to be a successful strategy for me.

 

[IRstuff]

Most managers that I've seen clearly associate long hours with dedication to the department and strong work ethic.

So, even someone who always finishes their work on schedule will find that they are perceived to be slacking, while others are slaving away on overtime, paid or otherwise, rather than being perceived as being productive.

Additionally, in some places, paid overtime is considered to be part of the compensation, and people who are productive and finish on time are treated with disdain for ruining things for those that want the overtime.

So, it's possible, and possibly ironic, that the OP's coworker may resent the OP for making him look bad.

It's all a matter of perspective and priorities. One man's meat is another man's poison. The OP's boss's valuation system will become clear at review time. The OP will either be praised for being productive, or chastised for being a slacker.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[dgowans]

I think this whole thread needs a "Your mileage may vary" disclaimer. Come on people! Engineering is not always black and white in the technical aspects of our jobs; why should the "soft" skills be any different?

There simply just isn't one blanket that can be thrown over every position/employer/compensation scheme. Some people have a well-documented policy that converts overtime into additional vacation, some get paid for the overtime, still others get rewarded for their efforts at annual review time. Shouldn't we as individuals be expected to realize what situation we're in and act accordingly? I routinely work "unpaid" overtime because it makes me more valuable to my employer and, thus far, I've seen my efforts pay off. Could I get by with working an "eight-and-skate" schedule? Probably. Would this have yielded the same results? Maybe, but I used my own judgment and determined that I would be better off by putting in some extra effort. I don't feel cheated in the least.

As I stated in another recent thread, "A good deal is a state of mind." That applies here as well.

 

[MikeHalloran]

If you've got time enough to worry about whether someone else bills their hours or not, you're being overpaid.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[LUDPEKA1]

MIke H.

You usually have very good advice or provide appropriate information, but I find your last statement to be completely off base.

 

[moltenmetal]

dgowans: sure, your mileage may vary with location, industry, specialty etc. But one thing is certain: if you get something for free, its perceived value is LESS rather than more. Pure human nature. Bosses are humans...well, most of them are, somewhere deep down. Or at least were...

Don't for a moment confuse an ethical unwillingness to work significant quantities of improperly compensated overtime with being a clock-watching slacker. HUGE difference between the two. Being a salaried employee much less a licensed professional demands some flexibility on your time to suit your employers' needs, but that flexibility MUST be a two-way street or you're no longer a salaried employee- you're a wage slave!

Yeah, it'd all be personal except for one thing: give away your services and you don't just de-value your own- you de-value MINE as well.

Face it: either someone else is profiting from your extra effort, or worse still NOBODY (at least in your own company) is profiting from this. Ultimately you're doing charitable work for a profitable company. How is that in YOUR interest? You're making a business investment- an extremely unwise one unless you are given a meaningful SHARE of that profit.

You may think you're trading that extra effort for benefit at review time, consideration for promotion etc., but guaranteed there are some institutional limits around what percentage ABOVE the average salary they can give you as a merit increase.

Do the math: steady 50s should be netting you 25% extra salary. Steady 60s? 50%. How're those merit increases working for you in THOSE terms?