Culture at Structural Firms 7

[Lion06]

I'm getting ready to begin a pretty intensive job search (I'm still employed, just looking for something that gives me more time at home and compensates me more appropriately). One of my biggest concerns about leaving is the potential for a culture shock at a new firm. By culture shock, I mean corporate culture. Right now I have a lot of autonomy - I (for the most part) decide what I want to work on and when as long as the work gets done. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck asking about getting stuff done. My colleagues and boss value my opinions and will always (maybe usually) acknowledge if I have a valid point when we disagree. My boss is a pretty happy, easy-going guy (though his expectations are very high) and I recognize that personal life and circumstances can easily sway the tide as to whether someone is a good or bad (read overbearing) boss.

We also have an extensive library, top notch computer systems, lots of software, continuing education, and we get to work on some pretty prestigious projects with world class architects. The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.

What I'd like to hear about from the structural guys out there is what is the culture at your firm like. Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"? How many hours do you typically work in a week? Does your company provide good computers and software? Do you make a fair salary? Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals? Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?

I'm really just trying to get a sense of what other structural firms out there are like.

 

[DWHA]

Structural EIT,

As you did, I just sat for the PE also. I think what you are making is pretty close to the norm for the consulting industry, maybe a little low but not terrible. I recently went from the consulting industry to the power generating industry and got a 40% raise.

The consulting firm I left in August paid mid to upper 50's, with strait time pay past 40hrs. I was the highest paid non licensed engineer when I left. A friend of mine got his PE in the spring, and is makeing about 50, without any OT pay.

I do make much more now, however, I feel that I am going to be pushing more papers than designing now. And when I asked what computer programs they had, the response was we have mathcad.

 

[Lion06]

WOW!. If that is the norm for consulting......... we are WAY undervalued!! I thought I was just aking one on the chin to stay with a good company!

 

[Trackfiend]

What area are you working in? It would seem the area and the type of work dictates what the market will bear for an EIT or PE. I work in the New Orleans area and EIT's coming out of college can expect anywhere from 50k to 65k to start (structural) depending on if you go to work for a consulting firm or one of the big petrochemical companies (ex: Shell). A PE commands around 85k to 120k but that could also depend on if you are mostly technical or if you move into project management (which it would seem that the pay goes up nicely).

However, my firm is one of the few that pays well for its employees in trying to retain good talent and stave off the competition (Jacobs, URS, etc.) from attracting them away.

Some the surrounding communities don't pay as much for EIT's (40k to 50k), but I do know that pay goes up considerably for PE's.

Again though, in the New Orleans area the oilfield helps to boost the pay scale. From what I understand Houston pays about 20% more than the New Orleans area.

 

[Lion06]

I'm in the Philadelphia area, and it's a fairly high cost of living area. This decision isn't just about money, though, that's why i asked the other questions.

 

[DWHA]

Trackfiend,

Just a question about the petrochemical work. Are there periods of time where one is off-shore? If so, I would think that they would offer more money due to the inconvience of being isolated in the ocean for 1-2 months at a time. Also, isn't there a lot of 12hr shifts working in the petrochemical field?

 

[Trackfiend]

I work at a consulting firm that will sometimes require its engineers to go offshore, but that is only for a day or two. As far as the any of the oil companies, I'm not sure. I have a few friends that work for both Exxon and Shell and they tend to "follow the projects". With land based projects (compressor stations, LNG facility, etc.) they would be on site most of the time. With the offshore work (design of platforms such as TLP's), I would imagine that most of that work is done from whatever office they are stationed at. Here in New Orleans, most of the Shell engineers and project managers work downtown in the One Shell Square building.

There are also several chemical plants where engineers in this area could find work at the roughly the same pay scale. Again though, several factors affect your pay (experience, work resposibility, etc.) and I am in no capacity whatsoever to be the pay scale expert for all jobs engineering in this area. I can only pass on what I know from talking with some of my peers in the industry.

A good source of information is Glassdoor.com. I've looked up a few companies in my area and it seems to be fairly spot on seeing on how the information is submitted by the workers themselves and not some overall "survey".

 

[Ron]

SEIT...you're a little low, but not greatly so. I've watched starting salaries of engineers just out of school go down a bit over the last couple of years, as you would imagine.

The five-year mark is when a lot of engineers start checking their "value" to the company against their salary. I know I did and I've seen it numerous times. Sometimes in the consulting world, the only way to get a decent raise is to change jobs.

Indulge me for a minute here with a war story....At 5 years with my first engineering firm, I was getting antsy. They offered me a 5 percent raise for passing my PE. I wasn't particularly happy there, so looked elsewhere and got an offer of over 10 percent increase and a relocation bonus. I accepted. Old firm countered with almost 20 percent. My response was "Why wasn't I worth that yesterday?" I left.

In my career with engineering firms (not my own), I've been given two pay increases that I didn't ask for. All others I had to ask, cajole, negotiate or leave to get.

It sounds like you work for a pretty good firm in most respects. I know of consulting firms that do not give increases except on rare occasions. That's not right and I can't imagine why anyone would stay...but many do.

It sounds as though they respect your work. I know that most of the forum community here respects your technical opinions, so I can see why they would want you around. I think it's time for you to have a strong, clear, and pointed conversation with your principals. They probably know what they have, will give you excuses for not having bumped you already, but will understand from the clarity and seriousness of your conversation with them that its time for them to step up...tell them that you enjoy your work, you enjoy the company, but you're feeling a "put upon" by their lack of financial recognition of what you do. Don't get indignant, don't overstate your worth, don't try to "hold them up for ransom". Use the same approach to preparing for your meeting with them that you use for solving a technical problem...it will serve you well.

Good luck.

Ron

 

[rscassar]

I would want to world on prestigious projects with world class architects, even if it meant being on a reduce salary like yourself.

 

[crossframe]

You could also give yourself a nice little effective pay raise by reducing the "free" hours you work. As others have pointed out, it sounds like a pretty good company, but even great companies recognize a deal when they see it.

That said, try not to get too hung up on the money. A good working environment has value to most people. Pay raises are only short-term motivators for poor working conditions. Sometimes companies can take care of you in ways you don't expect, or even see. Large consulting firms often have little flexibility in what they can provide for you.

This is probably a good time to look around: You currently have a good job and you may be able learn the going rate in your area. Then you can decide exactly how much your working conditions are worth.

 

[msquared48]

SEIT:

Agree with Ron that mid 50's is low. Being a single man shop, all I could comment on were my experiences of 25 and more years ago which will do you no good now.

Good luck in your search.

P.S.

Before I read the answers, I was going to say that the only "culture" I found in engineering firms was in the firm's refrigerator. Then I decided not to post that.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[Ron]

Hey Mike! Not sure Leno will be calling after that last one! Not bad, though!

 

[frv]

StrEIT..

I'm in Texas and it seems to me that it is low.. I'm very close to 60k, rarely over 40 hrs. per week and I haven't sat for the PE yet. Additionally, when times were good, profit sharing was great.

I think the not having received a pay raise in 3 years doesn't seem unreasonable, given the state of affairs.

However, as others have mentioned, judging from your lucid, well-informed answers on many of these threads, I'd say you are undercompensated.

 

[Lion06]

What is the culture like where you guys work? I know that there is more than compensation to consider, which is why I'm curious how the culture at my firm compares to others.

 

[JAE]

SEIT - here's a few culture descriptions from my past:

65 person firm with about 45% Structural, 45% Civil, and 10% Architectural (we kepth them in the closet).
Good leadership as the firm was started just after the turn of the century - tons of "old" experience. The leadership treated everyone like family. Some level of corporate structure but decisions were always kept real and person-to-person (vs. memo). Good clients, good rep, good projects. When I resigned (to move closer to family) the president suggested it was like loosing a son (it was real hard to hear that).

160 person firm in another city - three offices in different cities - one large and the other two smaller. Multi-disciplined A/E firm that had a corporate culture similar to a 1000 person firm. Run by both architects and engineers fairly balanced. Fair projects but nothing big. Structural department managed themselves fairly independently but the head did have to answer to the Operations VP. Not much say overall in the company but a well run firm with good track record.

15 person firm - structural only. Complete autonomy - but also completely up to you to market, keep clients happy, hire and fire, etc. Limited resources and moderately sized projects. The quality of working for outside architects highly dependent upon the quality of the architect, both ethically and technically.

Of the three - the small firm has been happiest, the old Structural/Civil firm a close second.

 

[frv]

Well.. it's OK.. it's only the branch manager, a draftsman and me. I've really had to learn almost independently, as mentorship is not really his forte.

I've never really worked with world-class architects or on world-class projects. Occasionally I'll get to work on something interesting. I do have a lot of autonomy. Nobody is ever breathing down my neck, I get a lot of flexibility about working hours. There is a lot of professional development.

Having said that, however, I really love what I do and I like the company. I also like the branch manager. The times I have had the opportunity to work on interesting projects I have taken the time to learn what I need.

 

[abusementpark]

Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"?

Yes, and I don't see the problem with that. My bosses and I communicate on a regular basis. I should note that I work for a small firm and I am usually juggling multiple projects of various magnitudes. They need keep me abreast of what is top priority, recent client interaction, etc.

How many hours do you typically work in a week?

45-50 hours a week, but I get paid an hourly rate, so I welcome any additional hours.

Does your company provide good computers and software?

Yes, especially for small firm.

Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals?

I'm a year or two away from my PE, so I am not yet sure how that will work once I am licensed.

Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?

Yes, no misrepresentations I can think of.

The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.

Who dictates how many hours of overtime you are required to put in? Have there been significant Xmas bonuses' to offset the large amount of unpaid overtime hours? If not, then the situation you are describing is very undesirable to me. Think of the effective rate they are paying you - it is less than a teacher's starting salary. I don't care how much I like the job, the prestigious projects, the resources, etc - if the compensation is terrible, I'm not sure how I could arrive each day with a positive attitude.

 

[abusementpark]

I think the not having received a pay raise in 3 years doesn't seem unreasonable, given the state of affairs.

He's working 55-60 hours a week!! It sounds like the state of affairs is in good standing. I'd want explanation on why I received a pay cut while putting in so much overtime.

 

[weab]

I have worked at several places. The small firm, 15-20 employees, was a place with owner in charge, expected whatever hours it took, and no OT. I forever played "fireman" getting calls from clients at 3pm saying they need an answer by 5pm. I learned a lot but could have been out of a job when the economy was down. I had a great mentor and learned a lot.

I worked in a shipyard with 25000 people. Though we built for clients, usually the US govt, we did engineering essentially for ourselves. I became a cog. I did nothing special, got virtually the same percentage raise as anyone else regardless of performance. Not a bad place to work but would have done the same things just on different ships. Did some OT and got paid straight time.

I love the company that I work for now because it meets my priorities. There are a couple hundred employees but still family owned. The owner really cares for his workers. Though we have had layoffs in previous years, I know that it pains the company to do so. They will hold on to employees for far longer than the large firms. By the way, during the recent bad years, they only let go about 5 people or so. Right now, we have a lot of work. Once I picked up on some of my worse qualities and picked up on what the bosses want, I have been regularly rewarded with pay raises. OT is paid straight time. The company says that vacation time is YOUR time and gives you little flack about taking it. Currently, the work we do has deadlines that can be forseen.

My point is that there are a variety of places. Note that even though you may be a structural engineer and feel that you can do engineering anywhere, some industries just pay more. Working for a company that does public works, small pay. Petrochemical industry, high pay. If you work for a Shell or an Exxon, you will work your @ss off and get paid straight time only at a high salary. You are expected to get the job done.

Are you underpaid, I'm not sure. Where I work, we do a wide variety of work so we get paid moderately. We bill differently whether we do a pump station or an offshore platform. If we did only offshore platforms, we'd likely get paid more, but would be out the door next time oil drops below $40/barrel.

We get continuing ed paid, good software, good computers.

It sounds like you are asking the right questions. I don't know how you avoid working for a bad boss because I would think that most people are on their best behavior during an interview. I believe that you will be able to find a place that meets your needs.

On another matter, watch how much you say on this thread and others. If I worked for your company, I might be able to pick you out or at least suspect. Watch how much you say on this forum in case you decide to stay put.

Good luck.

 

[DWHA]

Structural EIT

Because of the hours you are working I would ask for a raise, as others have suggested.

Also, once you are officially licened here is what I would do. I would bust my butt to be the lead engineer on a couple of projects that would look excellent on a resume. Just annoy your boss until he lets you be the lead on some big projects with these well known architects. After a few projects and a few years, you will have a heck of a resume. This will get you much further in the long run than leaving now.

Where I used to work was a small firm. 60 people. 7 structural, 2 architects, about 20 civils, about 10 surveyors and about 20 technitions and admins. I really liked my group. My boss would bury me to challange me, and help me out when ever I needed. I did not like the president though, he acted like he ran a firm of 1000 people. We would get a new memo on our desk every other day about how he changed some rule or policy.

I worked about 50hrs a week (and got strait time past 40 hr). Had good computers and softwars. The firm encouraged the engineers to stamp own work so they would take "ownership" of their work. But I do not think that they would make anyone stamp anything (I am sure that if one was refusing to stamp their work, that issue would be considered during raise time). The only misrepresentation during the interview was that the president said that I would be working a max of 45 hrs a week. And I already went into my opinion about the president so I will not discuss that further.