Customer shopped concept proposal to others 17

[Richard63]

A potential customer asked me for a proposal for a special turn-key machine.

I suggested and submitted a proposal for an entirely different concept that I thought would be much better than what he asked for. I spent a lot of time researching vendors for some of the components, including spending an extra day and night in Chicago speaking with the major vendors of two of the components, and a lot of time putting together a concept CAD model and proposal. This was done without cost to them, and the email containing the proposal was marked confidential.

He reviewed it, liked it and after a couple weeks said a purchase order was coming.

Time went by, no PO. He said he still wanted to do it, but had to wait till a later date.

After several months, I get an email from a 3rd party consultant, whom has also been a customer, letting me know that they are reviewing proposals, but want me to quote portions of my own original proposal, while they parse out portions to others, and go direct to the suppliers that I previously researched.

I feel it was unethical to take my original concepts, shop it around and parse out some of the pieces to others, and then have the nerve to ask me to requote some portions. When I was a younger engineer on the recieving end of quotes, my boss taught me to never share suppliers plans and quotes or use them as leverage for requotes. I have since found that this whole concept seems foriegn to some people.

My gut reaction is to let these two know that I believe this was an unethical use of my proposal, and that I no longer want to do business with them (even though they are throwing me a bone by allowing me to now quote on a portion of my own concept).

Before I burn these two bridges permanently, I'd like to find out what others think; Did they cross a line in taking my concept and proposal, seek quotes from others for it, and then try to parse it out to others in whatever way that suites them best? Or am I being too unrealistic, and should I take whatever scraps I can get?

 

[IRstuff]

I should point out that getting ones proposed concept encapsulated into an RFP isn't necessarily a bad thing.

In most of my previous companies, the goal of business development was to get to the customer BEFORE RFP release, and to get the final RFP tailored toward our strengths and away from our competitors, which would, in some cases, be taking our design concept, which we understood well, and putting our competitors on a steep learning curve to understand how to make our concept work, without knowing all our design details.

One particular competitor even had a "lock-out" manual that explained how a customer could lock out other competitors by specifying specific features or functions that only our competitor provided.

Likewise, when I was buying test equipment, and wanted only a Tektronix oscilloscope, I would scour the Tektronix catalog description for items that I could put into my sole source justification to ensure that the buyer would have to buy that specific Tektronix model of oscilloscope.

Obviously, this is different that someone just stealing your design, but the boundary is quite thin, and you're obviously betting on the come, and sometimes, you just get craps.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[jmw]

Why didn't the original specification go out to three companies?

It might be because you work for a company that has to have three bids to choose from and you want to choose, not the let buyer choose.

You send the spec to the preferred supplier and he does all the hard work and, if he is clever, includes a spoiler, some feature that only he can offer.

Now you write a bid request such that the other two companies don't have too much work to do but who will bid with exceptions or alternatives and who will hope that one day hey get to be preferred bidder. If some companies no-bid you just send it out some more.

Some will bid too high or too low and some like to bid as close as they can just for the fun of it.
I can't think how many times I have worked on bids knowing we were not going to get the business but did it anyway. Some times it pays off at some future date but in any case, I had some work to do, the field guy had some work, the quotes boosted the bid value on the books and the work I did do wasn't nearly as much as it would have been if the preferred bidder (we sometimes knew who it was) has had first chance and has done all the hard work.

Other ways are to send the bid requests to companies who will no-bid or who will turn in silly bids with prices too high or too low to be trusted. I hate no-bidding because then you have no chance, you bid, you at least have some chance, however small and at some time, just to keep you playing you may get a genuine shot where they don't have a preferred bidder for a project.

For all the rules the clever people think up to try and make things "fair and above board" or simply to give the buyer some decisions to make (if it is the buyer who wants three bids) there are all sorts of brighter engineers who can figure out how to have purchasing buy the exact product they want.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[JLSeagull]

A common practice for some operating companies is to select one contractor for the basic or FEED engineering; while prohibiting the FEED contractor from bidding to do the detailed engineering or other subsequent work. People working these type projects know how the system works. They either try to bid the FEED design; or try to participate in the detailed engineering or construction scope.

 

[Richard63]

Is it correct to assume the FEED contractor has a higher price than the others that do the detailed work?

 

[MGXFP]

Don't feel too bad; I've had customers grab completed plans and then try to find another contractor to install my designs for a lower price than agreed on thus saving money by stiffing me.

Since a few naive incidents the policy is: no money - no plans.

 

[SNORGY]

What sometimes works is to promise only "unstamped" drawings in your FEED deliverables.

Unfortunately, the Engineering Association / Board might still consider these unstamped deliverables as a bona-fide practice of engineering for which you nonetheless might be held accountable even if someone else built to them in the next phase.

Ideally, at some point, people can / should only build to a set of professionally endorsed (stamped) deliverables. Either they just rubber-stamp someone else's design, which is stupid, or they build to an unstamped design, which is stupid, or they re-invent the wheel, which is stupid, or they copy in large measure the design and then stamp it without fully understanding it, which is stupid.

If professionally endorsed (stamped) deliverables are part of the requirements for the FEED or PROPOSAL, then I do agree that withholding of same until 100% of the bill is paid is appropriate. The FEED / PROPOSAL contractor should also, in my mind, be permitted to bid on the detailed work, perhaps with a credit given in the bid for the FEED / PROPOSAL work already completed.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[ACtrafficengr]

A question from the other side of the fence. I work for a highway department, and we often issue RFPs for our more complicated design projects. Sometimes a firm that doesn't get the job has an idea in their proposal that is too good to ignore.

Our responsibility to the taxpayer is to give them the best project we can for their dollar, but what is our responsibility to the firm with the good idea?

"...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

[davidbeach]

Your responsibility to the firm with the good idea is to pay them for it. How could you even have any doubts? Being a state agency does not give license to steal.

 

[NomLaser]

"Our responsibility to the taxpayer is to give them the best project we can for their dollar, but what is our responsibility to the firm with the good idea?"

Can't believe that I just read that... *shakes head*

 

[ACtrafficengr]

That's pretty much what I thought. Unfortunately, the Mgt. sees it this way:

They know when they are writing a proposal, that there will be no compensation for their work unless they get selected. They also know they won't get selected unless they put some effort into the proposal.

It bothers me that the unsuccessful firms don't even get a "thank you" for the thought they put into the proposal.

Competition is pretty fierce. We got 13 proposals for a simple 60' bridge on level terrain. If it isn't a federal aid project, their fee basically has to be in the bottom three to get the contract.



"...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

[apsix]

That sounds similar to;
Management for every large store knows that there will be some stock loss due to shoplifting, therefore it is OK to shoplift.

 

[rowingengineer]

I wish I knew this when i worked at target near on 12 years ago.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[jmw]

Its not OK to shoplift but, with a self service retail model, shoplifting and spoilage are part of the cost of doing business.
It isn't condoned, it isn't excused.
If it gets to bad then rather than throw away the business model they try and bolster it up with store detectives, cctv, tagging etc. always balancing the cost of the problem against the cost of the cure.
There is no satisfactory solution in real life, just compromises.

No one likes having their ideas or their hard work ripped off. It happens and it is the cost of doing business.
If you don't bid you don't get the job. If, to try and get the job you give away more than you'd like then your choice is to live with it or try and control it.
If it gets to be too bad an issue then enough people will get together and collectively do something about it.

I'd guess the first thing to do is not to sit on it but bring the issues up with the user body, society etc so they can know that their members are concerned, so they can measure the scale of the problem and so they can take whatever steps are appropriate to have the situation modified or clarified.

Individual companies will always be at a disadvantage because they are at risk of getting no contracts at all however good their bid if they stir the pot. But, if they and others collectively believe the problem is getting out of hand then the problem will be addressed.

The fact that this goes on doesn't make it right, all it indicates is that it hasn't reached the proportions where enough people feel strongly enough for action to be taken.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[patprimmer]

I am completely lost as to how anyone can excuse IP theft on the basis that they are the government and that makes it OK.

Surely the representatives of the people should behave better than a bunch of crooks.

The engineers you rip off are also your constituents.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[jmw]

This is about drawings requested and presumably there may be some copyright involved in the drawing but Intellectual property rights are very poorly protected in law.

Even if you have a patent on an idea you have only as much protection as you can afford to spend on lawyers.

Trevor Baylis is calling for some changes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...d-up-radio-calls-for-tougher-patent-laws.html

He makes some very good points.
The whole protection status of intellectual property is archaic and really does need overhauling. I doubt it will be easy or contention free but I would agree that it should be very much easier to gain protection (the cost of patents is beyond most peoples reach and it is only the big companies that can afford it.
ideas.

So in this case, if there is novel work done and presented it ought to be made easy to register the drawings and obtain legal protection enforceable by government.





JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[patprimmer]

It is entirely possible to be unethical and a crook without breaking any laws.

It is a sad state of affairs when it is commonplace that our governments behave in such a fashion and to think it is actually their duty to do so.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[ACtrafficengr]

So, how do we fix it? What do you do if someone has a great idea for a solution, but their proposal does not meet the other requirements?

The idea in question was an observation that realigning a roadway would make traffic control during construction much easier. I'm not sure it was copywritable, but they were a bit miffed. Understandably so.

As it worked out, they bid on and got two other jobs we let, totaling about $15M in construction costs.

So, if it happens again, I'll definitely speak up about it, but if their bid is unreachable in the rankings for other reasons, how can we make them whole?

Ask the winning consultant to use them as a sub for the related portion of the design? I'd understand if they refused.

Give them a few extra points the next time we evaluate bids? Is that fair to the others?

Somehow come up with some fair monetary value for their observation and give that to them? I'm not sure the County Legislature would approve the spending.

Live with the fact that we may not get bids from the best firms until the current Commissioner retires? Sadly, that may be the result.

"...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

[davidbeach]

What you do is you forget everything about the bid if you choose not to accept it. Plain and simple. If you don't hire them you don't get to use any of their ideas.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I'm not sure if the government allows such a thing (particularly since their the ones bidding for the job), but what if you proposed a payment for the use of the idea? If they reject the payment, you don't get to use the idea. If something like that was allowed, it truly would be in the best interest of the public.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[jmw]

Yes, the downside of the current approach which while unethical appears not to be illegal, is that you have to wonder how many good ideas have been held back because of this.
I know it happens all the time. Indeed, I know of one company that has designed what would be the perfect sensor for the car industry but refuses to even discuss it with them or bring it to their attention because they practically went bankrupt the last time they tried to do business.
Even on the factory floor level you can bet there are many operations where the operators, using the machinery and doing the tasks day in and day out know how to do it better and save money but keep quiet and keep to the written up method because they know they'll get naff all for their ideas, probably not even a thanks.
It has to be faced, the taking and using of other peoples intellectual property is common place, un-policed and damages far more than the few companies who have dealt in good faith and had their ideas stolen, it damages everyone because of the ideas that never see the light of day.
In the UK we have a government that came to power proclaiming a policy of ethical behaviour.
Yeah, right.
They can't even do that at international level let alone help create an ethical environment for small business or local government.
So as I said above, I guess it would have to start at the bottom and work its way up and if no one company wants to put its head above the parapet and risk never getting another contract that ought to be through the various professional organisations.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com