Customer shopped concept proposal to others 17

[Richard63]

A potential customer asked me for a proposal for a special turn-key machine.

I suggested and submitted a proposal for an entirely different concept that I thought would be much better than what he asked for. I spent a lot of time researching vendors for some of the components, including spending an extra day and night in Chicago speaking with the major vendors of two of the components, and a lot of time putting together a concept CAD model and proposal. This was done without cost to them, and the email containing the proposal was marked confidential.

He reviewed it, liked it and after a couple weeks said a purchase order was coming.

Time went by, no PO. He said he still wanted to do it, but had to wait till a later date.

After several months, I get an email from a 3rd party consultant, whom has also been a customer, letting me know that they are reviewing proposals, but want me to quote portions of my own original proposal, while they parse out portions to others, and go direct to the suppliers that I previously researched.

I feel it was unethical to take my original concepts, shop it around and parse out some of the pieces to others, and then have the nerve to ask me to requote some portions. When I was a younger engineer on the recieving end of quotes, my boss taught me to never share suppliers plans and quotes or use them as leverage for requotes. I have since found that this whole concept seems foriegn to some people.

My gut reaction is to let these two know that I believe this was an unethical use of my proposal, and that I no longer want to do business with them (even though they are throwing me a bone by allowing me to now quote on a portion of my own concept).

Before I burn these two bridges permanently, I'd like to find out what others think; Did they cross a line in taking my concept and proposal, seek quotes from others for it, and then try to parse it out to others in whatever way that suites them best? Or am I being too unrealistic, and should I take whatever scraps I can get?

 

[rowingengineer]

I find the whole patent deal interesting. Just a few years ago I developed a design for a contractor that would cut a $$$$ off for most of his projects, the idea was neither original nor new. I had put a few existing ideas together, spent the time I had to refine the design, and done what I was paid to do in my opinion. I do the same thing day in day out as this is what engineering is, in my opinion (as long as I get paid for this work I’m happy). However this design has since been patented in part by my former firm. How can a firm patent an idea that is neither original nor new?

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[IRstuff]

One option, is to reconfigure your procurements, if you think there's a possibility of a non-compliant, but good, idea. In some military development procurements, it's not unusual for the winner to be told to work with a specific company, because they had a good idea, but a non-winning proposal.

Other procurements downselect af PDR. This does have the extra cost of an extra contractor until PDR.

Or, as suggested by my coworker regarding landscaping, which is that you contract separately for the best design, and then compete the actual build.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[patprimmer]

The real dilemma comes when you evaluate a plan and find some good points and some really bad points. You want to incorporate the good points and eliminate the bad. It gets even more complex when several plans each have both good and bad points.

There are various possible fair courses of action and you can only be guided by your conscience.

Throwing suitable sized crumbs can be a solution, as can be suggesting a joint venture as can be awarding alternate contracts as can be nominal payment for part use only.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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for site rules

 

[jmw]

Thing is, you don't get rewards for good ideas in failed bids.
Not only don't you get rewards you probably had to purchase the tender documents anyway.

In a practice it is the equivalent of saying that any good ideas submitted become public domain information.
If you can't protect your idea, the choice to reveal or conceal is yours.

Its wrong? Maybe.
But I can't see handing out cash awards to failed bidders being justifiable to the shareholders or the public.
The easiest and cheapest interpretation will always be chosen.
The next best thing is to submit a better bid next time.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[rowingengineer]

"The next best thing is to submit a better bid next time" better or cheaper????

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[tickle]

Surely a better bid is one that is accepted.

 

[rowingengineer]

Depends on whom is in charge of project. My bet is if it is a guy with a 3 year business degree, that probably hasn’t seen the outside of the office due to his he being stuck up someone a$$ for the majority of his career. That was born from a generation “y” that has spent the best years of his life inside playing computer games. Probably has never bothered to work out how to pump up his own tyres, little alone lift his bonnet of his own can and get a bit of grease on his hands, thinks the grease will cut his life short for some reason, and would prefer to pay someone to take care of this and any related cr*p. While he was at uni was drilled about keeping the bottom line in check, thus has done this since day dot and has been rewarded heavily for this stance with promotion after promotion.

Taking all this into account and that the person hasn’t a clue in the world about how your proposal works nor cares, all he wants to do is get the project on line for a cheap as possible. All he wants to do is get a design ticks all the “must fill box’s”. And the major box that his boss cares about is cost, then I would say the cheaper bid will win any day.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[jmw]

Bidding for tenders depends on the rules.
Of all qualified bids (i.e. technically approved) the lowest price will often win no matter if it delvers less than another bid.
But there are always ways and means.
The preferred vendor may find the tender written in such a manner that only the preferred vendor can properly qualify. For example, pick two part epoxy paint might appear and he is the only one to quote two part epoxy paint. That it is an irrelevance is not something purchasing can decide by the vetting engineer can.
Thus preferred vendor might be he who buys the most lunches.

Then too, some high bids may be for plant with minimal cost of ownership while the low bid is where the maintenance costs are extreme... it is where he makes his money.... and bids are usually going to be settled based on capital cost, not running costs.

Some companies conclude "strategic alliances" which means they get the business no matter what. It may mean they don't always provide the cheapest solution nor always the best solution and sometimes their's is the most expensive and the least good but the cost of purchasing is simplified and no one spends time researching different suppliers.

And of course, in the end, as Rowingengineer so delicately points out, in the end it may not be cost benefit or technical but the vagaries of some brown-noser's suck up factor that decides the issue.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[patprimmer]

There are as many reasons for approving or rejecting a contract as there are contracts.

The more common ones are:-
Confidence in a supplier.
To lazy or busy or naive to look for new suppliers.
Limited number of suppliers meet specification.
A relative works for one contender.
Bribes.
Lunches.
Women.
Their rep is hot.
Their rep attends the same church.
Their rep plays in the same football team.
Their rep supports the same football team.
Their company owner lives next door.
You are dating the owners daughter.
Patriotism.
Parochialism.
Racism.
Capital cost.
Anticipated running costs.
To spend the budget before it is lost.
Technical advantages.
Reputation.
Prestige.
Convenience.
Bundled in a bigger package.
Rebates.
Delivery time.
Accreditation.
Perceived risk factor.
They offer one feature you consider most important.
Your opposition just let them down.
Your opposition has them on credit hold.
Your opposition just started legal action against them.
They absolutely need another product that you have exclusively and you use that as leverage or even blackmail.
Blackmail.
Contract tied to support.
Favors owed.
Your turn.
Strategic reasons, like keeping two or more suppliers viable.
National interest.
Political party donations.
You were first to quote.
You were the only submission.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[IRstuff]

There are lots of ways around the lowest bidder scenario. In the defense industry, "best value" and "price realism" are both attempts at "fixing" low-ball bids so that they cab be evaluated on an equal footing.

The bottom line is that the Customer can almost always choose the supplier that they really, really want, regardless of the requirements compliance or cost.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[ACtrafficengr]

Such cynics!

We try to be objective when rating proposals. We are human, and I'm sure subjectivity creeps into it, but hopefully by combining the scores of 4 reviewers, it evens out.

These are the criteria we rate by:
Criterion / weight
Proposer's comprehension of the required scope of services / 3
Prior experience in similar projects / 3
Professional qualifications / 3
Total proposed price / 2
Proposer's demonstrated capabilites / 2
Length of time in business / 2
Client References / 2
Staffing (Evaluation of Employees' resumes) / 1
Disadvantaged business enterprise goals / 1

So, all ye cynics, you'll see price is weighted less than comprehension of the project, qualifications and experience. In effect, a good proposal from the second or third bidder can overcome a lower bid by a competitor.

Personnally, I'd fold staffing into professional qualifications, and time in business should be part of prior experience.

"...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

[MechEng2005]

I generally assume that if I have good ideas that I include in the concept, it is a reflection of the quality of the design they can expect. I hope that those reviewing the proposals would be able to see the benefits and decide if they are willing to pay a little more for them. Often, this can be something like improvements to the ease of maintenance. In some cases, it seems better to lose a bid based on the cost of these little additions than to build it as cheap as possible and then have the customer's complaints and screaming for repairs (under warranty) and generally getting a bad reputation for poor design.

In some cases it's possible to submit a "what you asked for bid" and then point out areas for improvements you see and note that these items are not included in the quoted price. Then, you are competing with other bidders on a level playing field while demonstrating your desire to produce the best quality.

Yes, it can bite you, and that sucks. However, believing that I am increasing/maintaining my companies reputation by promoting a standard of quality and superior design allows me to get over the sting of having my hard work and ideas stolen. Maybe it's naive, but I'll go my route until my boss tells me to keep the bids to exactly what they ask for or to leave details out of the concept.

I'm paid to provide the best design I can based on my judgement, and that's what I'll do. If my priorities on what the "best" design is are not consistant with my employer, they need to let me know.

-- MechEng2005

 

[GregLocock]

ACtrafficengineer - no weighting there for the technical content of the proposal (such as the good ideas you'd like to steal?)

Grins



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MikeHalloran]

A copyright on the proposal might provide some degree of protection of the expression of ideas.

Protecting the ideas themselves may not be possible.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[atook]

I’m occasionally in the same position as ACtrafficengineer, evaluating proposals for a munipical traffic project. And I’ve run into the same issue, where ‘Firm C’ brings up a possibility that might save some money, an alternative route or something along those lines. ‘Firm C’ doesn’t win the bid (NOT due to cost) and we end up suggesting that the winning firm explore the idea mentioned in the proposal of ‘Firm C’. We’re not talking about engineered designs that we’re sharing, we’re talking about general ideas that may benefit the cost of the project. I’m of the opinion that my responsibility to the tax payers is to get the best project available for the lowest cost. Also note that we have a clause in our RFP that says anything submitted is public information, and not to submit information with expectation that it will be kept confidential.

We usually have 5 or 6 people on the selection committee, and not all are engineers. Our evaluation matrix for engineering consulting is below:

Applicable Experience*7
Approach to Project*8
Cost Saving Innovations*7
Technical Expertise*8
Adequate Resources*7
Project Innovations*9
Project Proximity*7
Performance on Past Projects*9
Familiarity of Project*8
Proposal Quality*5

Back to the OP: What happened in this case is different in that it was strictly private sector, and a shifty tactic by said client. I’d take it as a lesson to avoid that client in the future, or work on a way to explain the benefits of your idea, without giving the idea out explicitly. PatPrimmer has it spot on.


Tim Grote - The Irrigation Engineers.

http://www.irrigationengineers.com

 

[plasgears]

I have found that proposals for work should contain very little detail. A contract and progress payment should be the signal to feed detailed information. Further, protracted consultation should have a price tag attached, otherwise bring discussions to a swift close. The goal is payment for services, not giving away design details.

 

[IRstuff]

Well, that works, presumably, in some cases, but in others, it's those design details that distinguish your proposal from someone elses. And, in some cases, it's those design details that fully justify why your proposal has realistic costs, while someone with no details is simply lowballing.

I can tell you that we've been involved with procurements where we presented design details showing why our design was compliant to a higher specification, hence more expensive, because the customer had mistakenly put in a requirement that would not have met the mission requirements. This was against the advice of the BD guys who wanted to simply be compliant. After the award, the customer told us that it was specifically because we demonstrated full and complete understanding of the mission requirements through our detailed analysis that we won the contract.

Obviously, that's a bit of a unique case, but does go to show that demonstrating that you understand the requirements and that your solution actually solves your customer's true requirements is worth the effort.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[hoyle]

I have seen this many times, and I am afraid to say there are certain parts of the world where this is rife, and I know of some serious European engineering companies who have had their fingers burnt, with stolen IP work. There is a drawing of mine sent to a potential Czech customer on the internet. It has all the legal disclaimer about copying on it, but it means jack in most countries nowadays. We had the web page translated, and basically it said- “UK Company X has proposed this, can you make it cheaper?”
Like the others say, strip out the detail, or give them loads of details on nothing at all, like bolt loadings, or things they could figure out for themselves with a decent engineering text book.
If you aren’t bringing anything technically superior to the table, then you will always lose out to the lowest (most ruthless?) bidder. Then the lowest bidder gets it back with late design changes, doing exactly whatever the customer asked for - even though it may not work at all and of course the good old favourite, mind numbing levels of service charges.
NDA’s are the only way to go, and in the UK, they are a reasonable insurance policy.
Although having said that Patprimmer’s list above is so close to the truth, it’s painful.
I know of two recruitment agencies which sends out stunning women to meet potential clients, then the blokes in the office take up the lead.

 

[ScottyUK]

hoyle - which agencies are they...?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[TDAA]

For some of the stuff I have bid recently, it has stated that all parts shall be public information, and that the public entity has the right to use any ideas contained in the proposals, as they see fit.

ACTraffic, get something like that in your RFP's and you should not have to think twice about if it is unethical. If someone wants to put in their concepts, then they can, but they should expect that they will not be paid, except if they win the full design.