Did not receive the raise i wanted, now what? 75

[MechEng7777]

Hi All, i've been working as an MEP engineer in NYC for 2 years now. Its my first position related to my career after graduating with a BS. I very recently received my end of the year review and received nothing but praise, my boss thinks i am progressing very well and becoming very independent. But to my surprise, after all that i was presented with just a 4% raise and a 4% bonus. I am fine with the bonus i received but i feel the raise is kind of offensive. I will be going into my 3rd year now and my first raise was more than this. My question is, what should i do? Should i sit my boss down and express why i feel i deserve a better raise and how i can do better for next year? Apply to other jobs and get another offer first? Or should i just continue working hard here and see what happens next year? Its a small private company (~80 heads) so promotions are rare. Also, i have my FE and expect to take my PE in 2 more years.

 

[rotw]

Btai88,

It was a good initiative that you posted in this forum your thoughts before you really damage your career, assuming you took no action yet. Did you say something to anyone else in your Company about your thoughts ? I hope not.

Read carefully the posts from the old guys here. Sure you feel surprised now and misunderstood. Take a deep breath and relax, that's a cognitive distortion. Then starts to 'integrate' all these thoughts and adapt your attitude accordingly.

From my standpoint it is good that you are upset. It reflects somehow a character strength and potential. All you need is to focus this character strength to build competence and grow.

Good luck man.

 

[MintJulep]

and my first raise was more than this

Quite possibly your first raise is what distorted your expectations.

Perhaps you were hired out of school at the company's "average starting salary". If you got a nice big raise after your first year then that is recognition that you performed at an "above average" level.

That first raise calibrated your salary relative to any other employees that started at the same time in the same position as you.

But perhaps you don't understand the concepts of "per cent" and compounding?

Starting Salary:

You: 100 pay units/time unit
Joe Average: 100 pu/tu

First Raise:

You: 10% New salary = 110 pu/tu
Joe: 5% New salary = 105 pu/tu

Second Raise:

You: 4% New salary = 114.4 pu/tu
Joe: 4% New salary = 109.2 pu/tu

Yes, in the second year you and Joe both got the same per cent increase, but your raise is bigger isn't it?

 

[kylesito]

zdas04 summed it up perfectly ""What should I do?" How about "grow the hell up"? "

Here's another thought...if you want to get a bigger jump than 4%, or even 5-7%, you need to start a new job. It's just a fact that there will be very few times in your career that you get a jump bigger than 5% internally. Usually, if you are lucky, you will get cost of living and not much more. There are exceptions...taking on a management role, getting an advanced degree, getting your PE, etc. But even with these, you will be lucky to get a bigger jump than what you are seeing.

I've gotten bigger jumps than 4% a few times...but they always came with starting a new position.

Other than that, yea, welcome to the real world.



PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[dvd]

Mr. 88 has not, to my knowledge, acted on his thoughts. So, it seems like a nice compliment to the people on this site that he has confided in, and trusts, the collective judgment of the esteemed members of this consortium.

I understand that it is possible to get behind the eight ball early in one's career if one does not get good pay raises - compounding and all of that. It is unknown how much Mr. 88 is currently paid. If it is $80k then he seems a little impatient, if he only makes $50k, then his feelings are a little more understandable. So Mint Julep's comments seem applicable.

I vote to cut Mr. 88 some slack. He has done nothing wrong, except to have some human emotions. It seems like there is a dogpile mentality around here at times, and I think it chases off some potentially valuable members.

Over and out

 

[dbooker630]

At my company the HR folks have salary ranges for all of the positions, supposedly based on what our competitors pay for the same type of work. There were initiatives to target the midpoint of such ranges. If you were on the low side of the midpoint it was more likely to get a higher percentage increase than someone on the high side. In theory the high side folks should be candidates for advancement to a position with more responsibility and a different range. Maybe your company has such a practice which may explain your first increase since you were a rookie engineer.

 

[rotw]

dvd,

I somehow tend to agree with you and that's also what I am trying to say above.

The real point is not that Mr. 88 is off the accepted norm, it is that the current economy is so uncertain and is creating an atmosphere more and more aggressive and hostile to life.
So the old paradigm that consisted to say that investment in good education is a guarantee to secure the future is less and less true. That is why Mr. 88 complaint about poor raise seems completely an anachronism.

 

[1gibson]

I think this all depends on his expectations. If we haven't scared him off yet, I really do want to see his expected numbers for low-but-not-offensive, adequate, and good.

If he has numbers in mind that aren't too unrealistic, then everyone should probably back off a bit.
If he thinks anything less than 10% is an insult, then we should quit holding back.
If those expectations have yet to be formulated, then he is just whining.

 

[ztengguy]

Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. Sometimes people get lucky and fall ass backwards into money.

If you dont ask, you will never know. Talk with your boss, find out the reason for the lesser raise. If not good, move on to another job with a higher wage. Just dont be cocky about it.

Let us know. Perhaps a bit of spunk from all engineers would raise the bar for all of us, instead of accepting what we do.

Jim

 

[PeterVenkman]

This thread didn't go the direction I thought it would. I guess only in engineering , a profession that requires a lot of education and on the job training, should you be happy with cost of living raises.

 

[ctopher]

This is reality. I'm happy with cost of living, if I keep my job.

Chris
SolidWorks 13
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[cvg]

if you are going to be an employee, working at a job, than you had better get used to cost of living increases or whatever else your employer is offering. you don't have to like it or accept it and if you are capable of negotiating a larger salary, than by all means do so or find a better job. If you do not want to rely on the benevolence of your employer, than you can also start your own business. But you will need a product or service that you can sell and which is in demand. An EIT certainly does not have adequate skill nor the legal ability to offer engineering services to the public. I hear catering is very lucrative though...

 

[wroggent]

"This is reality. I'm happy with cost of living, if I keep my job."

Such ambition.
--------------------------

I find it comical that zdas04 thinks 88 might be a whore; 88's not the one offering to do whatever he's told just to make a buck. I can hardly imagine what some of you would be willing to do, with a smile, if only the laws were a little different.

 

[1gibson]

Anyone else look at his post history? 2 threads started:

Sept 2011 - Graduated May 2010 and can't find an engineering job
December 2013 - offended by small raise at 2nd year first engineering job

Tables can turn again very quickly, that is the message everyone is trying to get across. The most effective reality checks are usually the harsh ones.

You might consider reflecting back on that first post, then re-evaluating your situation.

 

[oldestguy]

Reminds me of some young recent (spoiled brat) grads at one firm. One even went so far as to say:"I wasn't hired for that __________ work", when a newer field became part of our business. This thread's advisory comments should be required reading for students in their last year, so they don't get a notion that the world owes them a living and then find out the hard way. Those that "wern't hired for the job" at my old firm found out that those who did take on the new work advanced much faster. When it came to slack times, there was no problem in selecting those that were laid off. Many years later I have noted that the go getters had their own firms or were head honchos at others.

 

[Ron]

As usual, zdas04 sugar-coated his response! He's right on target again. You have little experience, you're not licensed, you take on no personal responsibility for anything you do (from a liability standpoint)...yet you expect a greater than average raise.
Are you nuckin' futz?

 

[tbuelna]

A 4% raise and a 4% bonus after just 24 months on the job? In the current economic climate that's quite generous. In fact, large companies often do not give merit raises or bonuses to entry-level engineers after just 24 months, unless they were negotiated as part of an employment contract.

 

[PeterVenkman]

The more I think about it the more my response to the TS question depends on a lot of things not mentioned. Maybe, he has nice benefits that includes a pension, large amounts of profit sharing, or company ownership. Some companies pay very low base that is offset completely by a bonus if the company does well. Maybe, he started very high on the pay scale as it is because his employer really wanted him. I don't know. Maybe, some of this is about the cost of living being ridiculous in NYC. You are never going to be paid enough as an engineer in NYC to offset the cost of living. Why not move to someplace like Houston, where there is a huge demand for engineers and the cost of living is like half that of NYC?

 

[Triangled]

I might be, as Ron insightfully observed above - nuckin' futz for getting into this thread, but, having a recently graduated daughter in NYC.........

I wouldn't necessarily say you're "expecting too much" (your second post I believe), but almost surely you're expecting it from the wrong source. Agreeing with almost everything said above, your present employment seems pretty good, but small businesses are run by people and there are problems and there are unforeseen losses and foreseen losses and there are gaps between jobs and there are long time clients demanding extra services and there are long time clients with their own financial problems cutting back on work and there are competitors providing lower quality output for half price ... ad-infinitum... And that's in good times.

"From what i can see i am working every bit as hard as they are..." I so hear you, but if, sitting where I am now, I had that thought in my mind, I'd shovel it out of my head as so much bs as fast as I could. I think you should work as hard as you possibly can without regard to others around you. A few days from now you'll be performing tasks almost effortlessly that you worked so hard to get done today. And then the posts above will ring truer that compensation comes more from productivity than effort. The post above about capping effort is incomprehensible to me. Yoda almost effortlessly lifted Luke's vehicle from the marsh, but it took a lot of preceding training effort.... Omg did I just say that?

There are of course always exceptions, but the compensation ladder has been pretty well outlined above...
Stay with same company, cost of living raises, low risk
Switch companies, bigger dollar jump, more risk,
Start own business, bigger dollar jump, bigger risk

It seems to me like you've got a pretty good boss. IMHO.

 

[MechEng7777]

All, sorry for the late reply as it took me awhile to read through everything and gather my thoughts on how to respond to everyone. Some of you are very understanding and i thank you for that, while i feel some of you are a bit harsh. But i thank you anyway for providing sound advice. As of now i have not spoken with my boss and most likely will not. I knew it would be a better idea at the time to just thank my boss, take a deep breathe, and have some time to think about it.

The one that thing bothered me the most about this was how some of you are calling me a spoiled brat, like i'm a 16 year old girl that is just taking handouts and not working for anything. It seems there is quite a bit of pent up anger. Please don't... you know nothing of my work ethic or my background. I come from a poor family and had to work my weigh up just like most of you have im sure. When i'm on the job i don't just sit around and surf the web all day; i do my work, learn how to do it better (i ask my mentor & boss a million questions, and they have told me this a good thing), and ask for more. I even help the team out by assisting them when they are too overloaded, and helped mentor a new hire whenever i could. I came here to ask for advice on what steps to take, not just to vent. But maybe i am out of touch with reality, i don't know, i am still too "green" in the professional working world to know.

I will start by saying that my salary was around $50k/yr, which i would say is decent but definitely not spectacular, in NYC. So i don't understand how a 4% raise is supposed to be considered "amazing" when the typical monthly mortgage for a house here is about 150% of my monthly take home (after taxes, expenses, etc.) and rent is about 40%. And i don't want to move away as it will split my family up, which is already very small to begin with in the US. It seems you are all saying it is a lot because it is what the norm is in this field, but i am saying in terms of being able to live a quality life it is morsels. If they say engineering is one of the top paid professions, how on earth are the lesser paid professions surviving in this city? And who is even able to live here then? Only CEOs?

Here are my reasons as to why i thought i would get more (I was expecting about 8% raise, which i would have been ecstatic about):
-I worked hard and put in my time, late nights, weekends, etc.(Unpaid OT). A few of the projects were pretty major to the company in terms of revenue as well. No major mistakes as far as i know, and the client for one project i was working on even sent a thank you letter to our principals stating how good of a job we did.
-Of all the people in my department, 1 has a PE, and i am the only other person that has an FE pursuing a PE.
-I know in larger companies you do one specific task, but in mine we are doing the surveying, drafting, mark-ups, and design ourselves.
-The company is doing very well, we've been getting a lot of projects in retail, office space, data centers.
-We moved to a new but smaller office last year, the CEO bought himself a $10,000 table and apparently gets half a million bonus every year. The principals are so rich they are renovating their expensive homes just because they don't like the way it looks anymore and are driving company BMWs.
-Over the last 2 years there has been about a 15% increase in number of engineers in the office
-Gathering information from friends in the field and coworkers that were not bashful about revealing roughly what they make (I did not forcefully ask them to reveal this info, and i would never use this info as leverage). It would seem i'd need to receive about $4k raises annually to keep up with them.
-I see everywhere articles stating that my field of engineering is one of the top paid professions. It just doesn't seem to add up, as to get to the "expected" levels of pay it would take me like 20 years. But by the time i reach it, inflation would have soared and i wouldn't really be making significantly more than i do now.

As to why i am not continuing my education for a masters, it is because in this particular field i've been told that a Masters does nothing to help, so why should i shell out more time and money for a degree that won't make a difference in my field? And i don't know how a masters would help as there isn't any high level research and development going on here. No re-inventing of the wheel i guess you can say. I know of several engineers at the moment with Masters in Engineering but make the same as their peers with just a Bachelors in Engineering. Its been said that a PE is worth much more, which i am already halfway there.

Maybe i should have said instead "I got this raise, what can i do to make it better next year?" And i reiterate, its not a matter of "im only doing it for the money", i genuinely enjoy this job. Rarely do i wake up feeling like crap for having to go to work. I was hoping for an 8% raise since i have heard from a handful of my coworkers that the first year raise is supposed to be a joke, and that they have gotten better raises with each successive year. I was expecting roughly $3k-$5k increases each year before i level off near the cap of what engineers make. I don't believe it is a matter of my performance/attitude, unless my boss is just straight up lying to my face about his thoughts on me. My other coworkers seem to think i am a good person, and i don't see any reason to believe that they secretly dislike me.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

We moved to a new but smaller office last year, the CEO bought himself a $10,000 table and apparently gets half a million bonus every year. The principals are so rich they are renovating their expensive homes just because they don't like the way it looks anymore and are driving company BMWs.

I would remove this item from your thought process when it comes to raises. What the bosses get have zero bearing on what you will be paid in almost any organization (Ben & Jerry's et. al. notwithstanding). We all hate to see the higher ups making huge bucks when we're making relatively paltry sums, but thinking that way will not help you in any fashion.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com