Did not receive the raise i wanted, now what? 75

[MechEng7777]

Hi All, i've been working as an MEP engineer in NYC for 2 years now. Its my first position related to my career after graduating with a BS. I very recently received my end of the year review and received nothing but praise, my boss thinks i am progressing very well and becoming very independent. But to my surprise, after all that i was presented with just a 4% raise and a 4% bonus. I am fine with the bonus i received but i feel the raise is kind of offensive. I will be going into my 3rd year now and my first raise was more than this. My question is, what should i do? Should i sit my boss down and express why i feel i deserve a better raise and how i can do better for next year? Apply to other jobs and get another offer first? Or should i just continue working hard here and see what happens next year? Its a small private company (~80 heads) so promotions are rare. Also, i have my FE and expect to take my PE in 2 more years.

 

[zdas04]

Had you started this thread with

"I got this raise, what can i do to make it better next year?"

the discussion would have gone MUCH differently. That statement is an acknowledgement that our actions are only one factor in the very complex mix of things that control compensation. Talking about "sitting the boss down and ..." was the trigger for the tone of the posts above.

Your life will be much happier if occasionally look at your contribution, not in terms of how many hours you spend working for your inadequate salary, but in terms of the value that the company receives from your work. Every time I've ever done that calc, it was 15-30 times the cost of having me in the organization (i.e., salary, benefits, retirement contribution, bonuses [when they happened], office space, computer, phone, administrative support, etc). That is not an unusual multiplier in a production company, but would have been very high in a service company (I hear that 3-10 is more common when all work is paid for in billable hours instead of process efficiency or increased production). In most organizations there is someone doing that calculation when they create the salary budget. I've talked to a couple of them over the years and when the multiplier is at the low end, raises are minimal and bonuses are non-existent. At the high end, the tendency is to put more money into bonuses than raises (to keep that multiplier effect mentioned above under control).

You probably are working hard. No one cares. They would rather that you got more done in fewer hours so they could raise your billing rate. At 2 years out of college, you are probably just approaching the tipping point where you are more valuable than the time that you are taking from your mentor and boss with your questions. Two years is pretty fast to reach that tipping point. When I had new Engineers in the 2-3 year range I started paying attention to the questions being asked. When the questions started getting interesting (and less redundant) I would start thinking about advancing them. As long as the questions were basic and I was being asked variations of the same question repeatedly I thought of them as a "junior" regardless of how many hours they worked a week and thought they should be happy with average compensation because their contribution was minimal in the grand scheme.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[kylesito]

88, in our field PE is king and until you are there, you are a dime a dozen. Whatever you decide to do, just remember that your immediate goal is to get the PE. Then what will most likely happen is that your current company will still value you as a FE but another company will see you as PE and you can make a jump at better pay and better responsibility. Right or wrong, you will see this same dilemma playing out over and over on these threads. It's just part of the profession.

Whatever you decide to do, your only real bargaining chip is getting your PE and you will gain some leverage after that to better negotiate.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[moltenmetal]

Wow, what a load of crap! People need to get off the high horse, stop the value judgments and anecdotes and start dealing with facts- we are engineers after all!

Ontario salary survey data- real, valid data based on thousands of respondents every year, representing both employers and employees- can be summarized as follows:

Average starting salary this year = x
Average salary of an engineer with 10-15 yrs of experience today = ~ 2x

Total cash compensation follows a similar trend, with the proportion of non salary compensation (bonus, shares etc.) growing somewhat faster than as a mere fraction of salary, but not that much in composite.

Data between those points is more or less a line, meaning that to stay on that track you need 6=10% PLUS cost of living every year on average. Nobody is going to give this to you unless you ask. And yes, it's possible to ask too often or in the wrong way.

After 10-15 yrs, salary grows ONLY at the cost of living - unless you increase in responsibility level. Then it grows at...not much more than the cost of living. So: it seems quite clear to me that many people here are applying their present inappropriately to YOUR present.

In reality, the only way you're likely to stay on that salary growth track is to change jobs at least once, taking a 20-25% pay increase in the transition. Every employer is going to want to take profit on some of their initial investment in your training- it's human nature in business.

So you either need to change jobs eventually to stay on that track, or you need an employer who understands the salary survey data and is in a business which can support the true value of your labour.

I would not suggest trying to find another job after only 2 years in, especially with an employer who is trying (4% + a bonus isn't insulting, but unless you're actually a poor performer it IS low). 5 yrs is a good point to jump. So your communications in regard to salary have to be careful, respectful and clear. As one above pointed out, asking what YOU could do to generate performance worthy of 10% next year would be a good approach.

BTW: OP, more free advice - you would do well to spend more time reading what you write before posting it. The expression is "worked my way up", not "worked my WEIGH up"!...

 

[TomDOT]

Stay where you are.

Work hard.

Get your PE.

See if you are significantly rewarded salarywise for getting the PE.

If after 4-5 years, you are still underpaid - start looking for another job, preferably in a high pay/low COL area.

Never* carry debt.

Sock away as much as you can. Build an emergency fund, then start filling your 401(k) or equivalent.

*Well, not truly never - but debt destroys the finances of so many people. Never carry consumer debt. Live below your means, et cetera.

 

[cvg]

Just a 7% annual raise for 10 years would double your salary. COLA not included. Sounds like 88 is close to the curve here. However, I would ask for more in the form of salary increase versus bonus which will not compound every year. Otherwise I agree with mm that the first 10 years or so is when you should expect the largest pay increases. It should be in line with increasing abilities and responsibilities. Beyond that it will require promotion into management, some sort of special expertise or company ownership if you want to continue up the ladder

 

[1gibson]

So 50 does seem low for NYC, but the problem was starting salary, not the % increase. Stop mixing them up. Unfortunately not a whole lot to be done about that now, you don't have many bargaining chips. The only thing you could possibly do is let your boss know you feel like your salary on the low end, and see if in the future you can forego any bonuses in favor of higher salary increase. There are more wrong ways than right ways to approach that discussion, so tread lightly. Showing that you are more concerned with your long-term status at the company, than with a bonus, will probably be seen as a good thing. Showing that you don't expect something for nothing should also be something that your boss can respect.

If they bought a $3k table instead of a $10K table, do you think they would hand you the difference?
If the CEO drove a Chrysler instead of a BMW, you think you'd get the difference?
Why on earth are these things on your list of reasons you thought you'd get a bigger raise!? These things don't affect you; realize it and let them go.

You are not as unrealistic as your first post made it seem, but you need to get these silly "reasons" out of your head, completely.

 

[steellion]

-Do a little research to try to determine the average and median salaries for a mechanical engineer in the NYC area. I’m not in the mechanical field, but $50k seems low for the area. I made about that much starting out 7 years ago in an area with a cost-of-living that’s about 50% of NYC. NYC salaries tend to be higher, but usually not high enough to bridge the COL gap so that you would have the same standard of living as a regular city.
-If you’re having trouble making ends meet, you’ll have to do what most New Yorkers do and either live in a micro-apartment in the city or face long commutes every day. That’s just New York for you. If you’re not willing to move, just grin and bear it. Most New Yorkers I know wear it as a badge of pride
-Stop comparing yourself to everyone and worrying what they make compared to you. If that’s the way you go through life, you will never be happy. There will always be someone that makes more $ than you, has a bigger house, a nicer car, etc. You could be a great engineer, but you seem to lack a general understanding of how business works. How could you ever compare what a CEO makes to a 2nd year EIT? Have you considered that maybe he earned that $500k bonus by bringing in $20 million of work into the company?
-No one is saying you have to work for a pittance. We just wanted to bring you the reality of the raise and bonus (survey says: pretty good). Your actual problem is your total salary. The only one that can fix that is you. If you’re not happy with your compensation, start looking around, see what else is out there. There are tons of design firms in NYC. You might have to get your “raise” from someone else.

 

[GregLocock]

I think moltenmetal strikes a note of realism

Your previous post was "Sept 2011 - Graduated May 2010 and can't find an engineering job", so you may have lowballed your salary going in, yet are now complaining that you can't see how to get the big bucks. Actions have consequences.

However what's done is done, what you need is a plan. Realistically you might get a 15%-20% pay rise if you jump ship now, but that may delay you getting your PE, which seems to be one of the better bargaining chips you can generate. So if you can delay your pursuit of BMWs and houses with 2 swimming pools (neither are worth the effort IMO) for a couple of years then I think that is your best bet.

And frankly unless you are an absolutely excellent graduate with 2 years experience, you don't really have a whole lot to bargain with at this point, you are still a net negative or zero on the day to day accounting of the company. In 2-4 years time that will change. At the moment you can ask, nicely, and hope.

One thing I've noticed is that in civil engineering there is no big jump in salaries, whereas I went from X to 2X between graduating and 3 years later, and was on 5X 5 years after that, having changed jobs twice. X was of course very small, as I was coming off a first year apprentice's pay.

Here's a graph. Every jump except 0-3 years is due to a change in job. Incidentally that is not very dissimilar to a graph of inflation.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[jpankask]

Generally, companies have a minimum of two years experience before advancement to the next level, i.e. engineer I starting out, engineer II at 2 years (minimum), engineer III at 4 years (minimum), etc. If you have just hit this milestone (or getting ready to), perhaps your boss is preparing to give you a promotion (with a requisite raise) to a higher level, assuming your work/attitude support that decision. That COULD be a reason for giving you a smaller end-of-year raise than you were expecting. Do you know what your requirements are for promotion? There could be any number of reasons for a lower than expected raise. If that becomes a trend over several years, then I would worry about it.

 

[KENAT]

As others point out, just working hard doesn't unfortunately cut it from a business point of view - productivity is generally the true measure of whether you're worth more to the company though the definition of productivity can vary a little.

However, there can also be an element of 'popularity contest' in the assignment of compensation increases. Even in larger organizations with more formalized processes this can happen - let alone in typical smaller companies that are more flexible. Most on this site probably don't like that there is this aspect (I'm not a big fan) and would argue it shouldn't be relevant etc. but like it or not it often is an issue in getting ahead.

I don't see a problem talking to your manager about how you can be more valuable to the company etc. I'd just be careful about being too blunt about the fact you are not happy with your raise. Now I'm sure someone will give an anecdote that suggests they were once blunt with their boss and got a big raise out of it - but I wouldn't count on that being the norm.

As others hint you may want to think about improving your communication skills, you didn't come across to clearly initially and if this is also an issue at work it could be holding you back.

As to the raise itself, - what if anything does your contract or hiring letter or company policy say about such things? 4% +4% bonus by itself isn't bad. Even in your situation as a one off it's not terrible but a pattern of similar raises could eventually be an issue.

At about the 2-2.5 year mark (my memory fades) I was fortunate enough to get a very large raise, going from something like GBP 18500 to 22000 but there were a number of facets to this beyond just my performance etc.

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[oldestguy]

Molten metal brings up another point.

BTW: OP, more free advice - you would do well to spend more time reading what you write before posting it. The expression is "worked my way up", not "worked my WEIGH up"!...

Do any of your jobs call for writing anything? How about speaking, as in job meetings or client contacts? Have you had a course in public speaking? How about extra phrases similar to: "You know" or "Like" instead of "such as". Leave those for basketball players.

Poor speech, as well as poor writing skills, are not helpful for engineering advancement. Matter of fact, in my experience, I have seen these negative attributes actually affect the laying off selections.

Unfortunately these factors,if present, are not easy to rectify, but with work can be improved.

 

[mtu1972]

For what it is worth, I reviewed my salary history. My career was spent in the upper Midwest; MI, MN, and WI; so nowhere near the COL found in NY.

With 1st full year as 1x; 2x at 5 yrs.; 4x at 14 yrs.; and 6x at 20 yrs. My last full year (39th) I was at 7.9x's.

Voluntary job changes occurred at the 3rd, 11th, and 14th years. I was downsized out after 26 years and had 3 jobs over the last 13 years.

gjc

 

[GregLocock]

Incidentally inflation over the last 30 years is a factor of 5 in my case, using a couple of on-line calculators. So the reality is that my current salary after 30 years is 4 times my graduation salary.

That's ... sobering

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[kylesito]

MTU, I'm guessing you didn't account for inflation in your figures?! Otherwise an engineer starting out at 50K would be making 200K within 15 years? I need to take a walk down to HR...



PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[mtu1972]

Kyle - No these are real ratio's, not corrected for inflation. But I started back before Shep was a pup. Starting salaries were in the 10K to 12K range. I had stayed in school taking graduate school classes because there were very few jobs in 1972.

The early years of my career had COL go up by double digit increases a couple of times. My 1st year it was 11% and I got a 9% raise. 2nd year it rose by 9% and I got a 7.5% raise. Started looking for a different job.

Again in the period from '79 to '81 we saw double digit COL increases. At my 2nd employer, we saw raises above the COL for the first two of those years. The 3rd year, things had started to slow down and my raise that year was 8% with the COL increase of just over 10%.

My 2nd highest salary was in 2000; the year the engineering department was eliminated when that employer was bought out by a foreign company. It took 12 more years to surpass that number in my last full year of work.

"There's no point in looking back - all roads lead to where I stand".

gjc

 

[Maui]

In over 20 years of working in this field I have not received a raise of 4% anywhere that I have worked, [italic]ever[/italic]. Mine were always less than this. So I wouldn't complain too loudly if I were standing in your shoes.

I did receive very large increases in salary by switching jobs however. And more likely than not, this is the route you will follow as well if you want to see your salary increase substantially.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[cry22]

Bti88

I know how you feel, my first years, I was so underpaid and put in so much time and hard work that my co-workers complained about my salary.

Wish I had your ambition son, there is nothing wrong with ambition. Ambition (or Greed according to Gordon Geko, see video below) is the essence of the evolutionary spirit. There is nothing wrong with wanting or making more money, especially when you feel that you're entitled to it.

From your post, you seem like a good kid who cares a great deal, don't listen to these old morons with a socialist mind.

Go for what you think you're entitled to, and don't settle for less. Be hungry, be foolish (Steve Jobs)

Just keep in mind that there is a price for everything, and be humble and don't have stereotypes or be judgmental like at a big firm you'd be only a one-task guy, you'd be surprised what you can be challenged with at a big firm, matter of fact, I suggest that you look for work at exclusively very large firms, chances are, you'll go from 50K to 70k to 75K job in NYC easily. If they ask for your current salary - LIE ABOUT IT, say you're making 65K or so, which is within market in NYC. And ask for more vacation time too. THIS IS THE TIME to make the move.

You've got one more thing going for you in NYC, it is very hard to find an engineer who can speak native English.

One last thing - don't look back.

Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If they ask for your current salary - LIE ABOUT IT, say you're making 65K or so, which is within market in NYC.

Do NOT lie about your salary... it WILL come back to bite you in the ass, sooner or later. That said, there's no valid reason to tell a company your current salary that is also in your best interest. It provides them with a very useful data point in how little they have to bump your salary to entice you over the wall.

If they ask, replay with "I'm sorry, I don't share that kind of personal information, but my research indicates a person of my particular skill set and experience level is worth $72-78k/yr, depending upon other benefits." If they're offering a low number of PTO hours, you aim for the top end of your range. If they're offering something on the low end of the scale, you can bargain for more benefits (such as more PTO, etc.).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[KENAT]

Lie about your salary, is that what passes for the much lauded ethics people in non exempt industry always seem so concerned about?

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[cry22]

I go with McGyver, very wise and sound advice, much better than what I gave you. My bad.

Kenat, I put in 70 hour-work weeks for years (unpaid overtime of course) and all I got in return was beans. When I made a mistake or missed something, I did not sleep for days and felt awful. I drive and I think about work all the time, paid the high price of broken family as a result. I speak from experience that hard workers are treated as mushrooms, you know, the kind that you feed BS all day long.
You can care about what you do and still seek the rewards of your honest hard word. This is what the post is about.

Bti88 - Do not neglect yourself or your family, they come before your work. And Money is THE part of it.