Duck boat disaster in Missouri 5

[bimr]

More than 40 people have died in incidents involving Ducks since 1999, so one would think that the cost for buying insurance would put these obsolete devices out of business.

amphibious-duck-vehicle

Was up at the Wisconsin Dells earlier this summer and don't understand the interest in that particular tourist attraction.

Another tourist attraction is the Huey. Was up in St. Joseph Michigan a few weeks ago and this Lest We Forget organization was promoting rides over the City. Riding in a 40 year Huey seems to make little sense. The organization obviously can't meet the legal standard to provide paid for rides so they offer a 1-year membership with a free ride on the Huey.

Tourist Attractions

 

[ashtree]

People will queue up to ride in a DC3. Not a bad aircraft by any means but most are 70+ years old now. But then B52s and KC135s which are still in front line service are 50+. By comparison with the DUKW these are are great designs.

Regards
Ashtree
"Any water can be made potable if you filter it through enough money"

 

[LittleInch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_tour

and scroll down to incidents.

Sinkings and issues with the canopies trapping people with and without life vests has happened previously.

I've been in fairly close proximity to these SIX TONNE monsters a few times and on land they are very ungainly and have very poor visibility and on the water are basically big open top tubs susceptible to roll, wave over boarding and sinking. Being flat bottomed with only a small amount of water they will roll very easily.

In engineering terms they were a product of their time but like most multi-purpose things, end up doing none of them very well. For a vehicle essentially designed for a few months operation and with a specific purpose in mind they have lasted a phenomenal time but once you start using them for public use as opposed to military then you need lots more safety and reliability. Much more modern versions of the same thing exist now and not these museum pieces.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[bimr]

Military aircraft were manufactured in the 1950s, 60s and 70s. The design standards of these aircraft was not the same as for modern commercial airplanes.

The maintenance standards are not as high as the standards required for commercial airplanes.

Depending on the location, the recreational flights may not be controlled by air traffic control.

The level of pilot training and health is unknown.

These factors make the risk of flying as a passenger on one of the old military planes much higher than for a commercial airplane.

Many of the same issues as the Ducks.

 

[LionelHutz]

It's sad and it didn't need to happen.

A number of incidents weren't caused because it was a DUKW.

The Canadian incident listed wasn't a DUKW.

Putting roofs and windows on them might not be the best idea.

Assuming it's true, having the captain tell passengers to not get the life jackets as the weather hit doesn't make much sense.

Still, compare the incident number vs the success numbers. I think you'd find the odds aren't against them any worse than many other things we as humans do.

 

[Strong]

The best use of the Duck Boats here in Boston is for parades to celebrate our great sports teams!


Walt

 

[JohnRBaker]

But then B52s and KC135s which are still in front line service are 50+.

And in those 50+ years, the average military aircraft, like a B52 or a KC135, will make only a fraction of the landings and takeoffs and spend an order of magnitude less time in the air than most airliners would do in only a few years of normal commercial service. Actually the biggest problem with older aircraft is not the time they spend in the air, but rather the conditions which they are subjected to during long periods of time when they are simply setting on the ground being exposed to the elements with their systems sitting idle, collecting dust.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[ornerynorsk]

Speaking of old aircraft (sorry bimr, we are now thoroughly detoured from the original post) has anyone ridden a Ford Tri-motor? There is a tour going around to various locations across the country, and I believe it's presently at Oshkosh.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[azcats]

https://www.apnews.com/48602fad3907...d-duck-boat-company-of-design-flaws-last-year

 

[EdStainless]

Ford Tri's make helicopters seem quiet by comparison.
That center engine causes the entire plane to resonate.
I would trust a DC-3, at least it isn't rotted out.

As for the DUKs, if a tour boat doesn't have a Coast Guard registration I won't get on it.
You will notice that none of these are in use on CG run waters.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

 

[IRstuff]

My understanding is that the USCG has jurisdiction over ANY navigable US waterways, which would include any US portion of the Great Lakes and all navigable rivers.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[zeusfaber]

One of the biggest problems faced by the Duck fleet is regulation: Being part-boat and part-bus, they can't really comply properly with either set of construction rules and it's always hard to work out which set of regulators ought to be trying to make sure that they do.

No lifejackets? Once stuff had started getting really hairy, I can sort of imagine that the captain was desperate for the passengers to stay seated. With the boat swamped, I doubt there was a lot of stability left and it probably felt like any movement (for instance to collect lifejackets) would prompt a capsize. For as long as he thought there was still a chance of recovering the situation, the captain had an incentive to leave the jackets in the locker. Probably not the ideal decision, but certainly not one I'd like to be called on to make.

A.

 

[waross]

There was an incident some years ago in Western Canada when some driftwood broke a headlight on one of those amphibs' and caused the craft to sink.
From the reported losses in wartime, they seemed to be a better target than a watercraft.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[JAE]

I'm not sure I'd want a life jacket on inside an enclosed space. If submerged the life jacket would drag me up to the ceiling and perhaps inhibit me swimming "down" through a window to get out.

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[msquared48]

JAE ... That is basic Coast Guard training. Learned that during my boating course given by the Coast Guard in 1988.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[bimr]

Because the boats travel on land and in water, they are regulated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Coast Guard.

The Coast Guard requires life jackets on boats but leaves it to the vessel's master to tell passengers when to wear the jackets during hazardous situations. The NTSB has recommended passengers not wear life jackets on boats that have canopies because when the vehicles sink, the life jackets can float passengers into the canopy, preventing escape.

The NTSB, which makes non-binding safety recommendations, has urged the removal of canopies from the vehicles to reduce the risk of drowning.

The agency has also recommended the highway administration regulate the vehicles for over-the-road travel with requirements for passenger seat belts, while saying that passengers shouldn't wear seat belts while the vehicle is in the water.

 

[ornerynorsk]

Starting out with a sketchy vehicle/craft to begin with, and now it comes out that they've been significantly modified.

http://www.wctrib.com/news/accident...ngineering-credentials-designed-missouri-duck

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[3DDave]

From gCaptain, the concern was that such operations avoid people with seafaring licenses and open water experience**. Since the vessel remains intact and typical stress engineering doesn't deal with sea worthiness, and every vessel of any size may encounter weather that exceeds its ability to remain afloat, I'd stick with their opinion that the captain/driver is most responsible for the sinking***, though the owners have significant responsibility for the captain/driver.

**It was suggested by an sailor who had sought such employment during the recession when offshore operations dropped off and may be biased - however the gCaptain forum members seem to be the sort who treat the job(s) seriously and the professionalism is very consistent.

***As expressed by dismay that severe weather warnings were issued in sufficient time to be off the water when they arrived. Most all were of the opinion that the main decision was based on not issuing refunds, if there was any interest in potential weather at all.

 

[berkshire]

They have amphibious boats in San Diego harbor

https://www.sealtours.com/?phta=sds...diego +harbor +tours&utm_campaign=All+Devices

Whilst they are called Duck boats by some , they bear no resemblance to the old wartime DUKW They are a barge with a 15* single chine hull mounted on a ten ton truck chassis. To enhance roll stability they have sections of 6" diameter bar welded on struts just below the truck chassis. In the water they are powered by twin screws driven from a transfer case like a four wheel drive vehicle. the vehicle is two wheel drive. I do not think even a vessel like this can stand the sea state shown in the pictures in Missouri although these boats appear to have more freeboard. The waves in that case were breaking over the boat.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[Spartan5]

Berkshire, for what it’s worth, they claim to be foam filled and positively buoyant.

The $379,000 Hydra Terra was the first vehicle which used CAMI's patented positive-buoyancy foam-filled compartments and CAMI is so confident of the design of the vehicle that it is claiming the bus is unsinkable, even with the drain plugs removed and the engine room flooded.

https://newatlas.com/cami-hydra-gator-budget-amphibious-vehicle/31890/

There’s a used one for sale in Florida for $150K if you’re on the market.