Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism 18

[lacajun]

Years ago I noted a lot of contention between various engineers here. Since I've not participated here in 2-3 years, it is interesting to see that contention still exists. In essence, we eat our own.

We do not know how to be gracious to others. We seem to lack insight into a fundamental in life, i.e., we're all on different courses.

Younger engineers resent older engineers. Older engineers resent younger engineers. Non-degreed engineers resent degreed engineers. Degreed engineers resent PEs. Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations. We tear each other apart and leave nothing to salvage from the exchange but hurt feelings, more resentment, more anger, and ultimately more damage to the profession of engineering.

We don't stick together. We eat each other alive.

Why can we not consider the many courses others traverse? Whether they tell us or not, can we not consider that their life has been different? Can we not consider that each decade of life has its own flavor? Can we not forbear our differences? Can we respect our differences? Can we rise above cannibalism?

We all have crap in life, from life experiences, and we all have to work on our crap. If we do not, it shows and it will ultimately bite us in the backside.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[TheTick]

Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations.

Not true. The latter are not engineers!

I suppose that's the kind of abuse that's getting us down.

 

[lacajun]

You people are the best! Engineers are a wonderful group of people doing some of the most important work in the world.

It is good to be back, too. You will keep me sharper than I would otherwise be. I truly enjoy the diverse viewpoints.

As to telling the truth, I agree. As to being blunt, I often am particularly as it applies to technical and legal matters. But the sensitivity needs to be weighed against the consequences in forming communications.

Iron sharpens iron. Agreed.

I'm not writing about the technical side of our profession. I am writing about the "softer" side of the profession and how we deal with each other.

As individuals, we can think for ourselves about how to respond before we ever begin to pound on the keyboard. Being truthful is the best way but we can find better ways than tearing down an individual or an entire group of people. My career began with older engineers, who would not allow personal attacks on an individual or a group.

As engineers, we have been given a lot; more than the bulk of society. As I've written before, I believe noblesse oblige is a good policy for us to practice. I am not "high born" but I do have the ability to think about my actions and how they may be perceived by the receiver. Therefore, I should think.

I am far from perfect in working with people. My aim is to improve. In the past, I've given people three warnings about how they were treating me and to cease and desist or they would regret their initial attacks. I am not one to seek confrontation but I am one to end a confrontation another has begun. They are always surprised at my observations and hurt. I regret the whole experience, when interactions reach that point. So, I am trying to find better ways to handle those people. I am uncertain what it looks like yet.

I worked with a career coach for awhile. He called me on my thoughts about others. They were true, which I thought was important. However, when he presented how I appeared and how that appearance revealed disrespect, I thought about it and decided he was correct. I had been a jackass and an arrogant one at that. Now that I'm older I can see what happens and why. Each decade of life has its own flavor and I am not quite so full of myself. Thank God! That really does get old.

I am diligently working to see the best in people. I learned decades ago, through family, that any bad thought I had about them would be displayed towards them. Whatever is in the heart, comes out. I am not strong enough to think poorly of someone and treat them as if they had done nothing hurtful.

I do not avoid discussing what people have done but it needs to happen in a positive, constructive manner. If it cannot be, there is no point in discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I've had a hard life but so has everyone else. I need to consider their journey, too, because it counts. As I've worked on some of my crap over the last two+ years, I can see where others have similar problems. It tempers my emotions and thinking towards them, which I think is good.

And I do try to avoid negativity now. I see no point in it.

That's my mind working.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[KENAT]

Well, if you're talking about the odd pile on that happens here then yeah, it happens a bit too often and a bit too strongly sometimes. I've been trying harder not to participate but probably still do at times. Seems sometimes folks will smell the blood in the water and come in from every direction.

I've seen the opposite though, people sticking up for an OP that strikes me as perhaps arrogant or otherwise flawed.

Then there is also such a thing as being overly sensitive - at least from another's perspective.

Some of it may be cultural, between my education and 1st job in the UK plus probably other experiences I accept a bit of banter, leg pulling, maybe even light hazing... Being teased about my crummy drawings by the older guys checking them was part of the reason I worked hard to improve my drafting. So I'll also do same which may offend some, but there's no ill intent so who needs to change - me giving advice for free or the person asking for free advice (that's worth every penny by the way).

English as a second language can be an issue, in fact even for some folks that appear to have English as a first language their posts can be hard to follow verging on unintelligible.

So yeah, we should be doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, but was also need to suck it up sometimes and get over ourselves.

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[IRstuff]

If it doesn't kill you... your blood vessels are made with sterner stuff...

My pet peeve, at this instance, is the increased rudeness that modern society seems to have fostered. There used to be a time when public shaming engendered public contrition and people were at least superficially polite. Today, that's not even remotely the case. Now, it may be that the upper class Victorians were every bit as rude privately and in their own minds, but they rarely displayed such behavior in public, since they had to at least maintain their air of gentility.

Beyond our secular engineering universe, the relatively common event on the street when you get cut off by some j.a. and responding by honking your horn is an angry bird in return, as if you had the unmitigated audacity to be insulted by that scofflaw's transgressions. I've seen a soccer mom with a minivan full of young children flip off a driver in passing them because they had the audacity to drive at the speed limit, which was not to the liking of said soccer mom. What lessons do these children learn from such occurrences? It used to be that being caught at being rude would at least cause the perpetrator to hang their head in shame, and offer at least some gesture that signified some sort of apologetic attitude.

I'll stay away from any politics, since that's probably always been rude to some degree...

TTFN
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[SLTA]

IRStuff, if you haven't seen the TED talk by Monica Lewinsky, I highly recommend watching it. Politics completely aside, she talks a lot about the internet and the proliferation of permanent shaming that happens because of it. Cannibalism, indeed.

http://www.ted.com/talks/monica_lewinsky_the_price_of_shame?language=en

Now I don't think this level of shaming happens on here, but it has often amazed me how rude and callous some folks can be when hidden behind a fake moniker. I've had a bad day and made a snarky remark, sure, but I try to keep it civil. You never know who is reading what you put out there.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[lacajun]

I dislike the rudeness of society today, too. I've broached the topic with younger people and most do not want to hear it.

It's almost like people have bought into being themselves to the point that rudeness is acceptable because they think they're so likable. They may be likable as a person but their behaviors may be unlikable. I can be the same way, too. I've had people call me bratty and I finally saw that it fit. I'm not saying I will not slip into it sometimes but the point was well received.

I no longer engage in political discussions. Those are pointless.

We all know the theory about what you are really surfaces when alone. I also have trouble believing a tyrant with others is not a tyrant with him-/herself.

I realize that some may view me as hypersensitive. That is OK. I do not want chronic stress.

I began participating in NSPE-CO last year. I cannot imagine any of those people yelling, screaming, disparaging, etc. each other. If they did, no one would want to be around them including me. They are focused on the profession and moving it forward.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[IRstuff]

I think most of what M.L. is talking about is not what I would call classical shaming, which is essentially a peer pressure mechanism to correct relatively egregious acts or crimes. Not unlike forcing someone to wear the scarlet letter. Those were always with the end goal of correcting the bad behavior. Whether it worked is a different matter altogether.

She is talking about just plain old, classical "cattiness," i.e., "she's got thighs the size of trees," or "he's dumber than a flyswatter." Those are just plain insults with no socially acceptable rationale; they're intended to hurt and humiliate. They do it because they can get away with it, and no one is calling them out for what amounts to psychological torture. It just goes to show that the veneer of civilization is only monolayers thick, and that any group of people can justify torture, or worse, in name of whatever the flavor of the day is.

I think it's a cultural disservice to call that "shaming," as it conflates a bad thing with a possibly good thing.

TTFN
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[desertfox]

However those comments are not limited to the engineering profession which was were this thread started.

 

[lacajun]

SLTA, I watched that TED talk recently. I felt compassion for Monica and what she endured. I suspect her humiliation was sufficient without all the other she endured. She was bullied and many should get that.

TheTick, you crack me up. I'm glad you've retained your sense of humor.

KENAT, you are still a good man and I appreciate your thoughts and efforts.

There are a lot of civil discussions here. It is not all out of bounds. But rudeness does exist. I've not read a lot so my experience was framed by just a few threads, which says something.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[MacGruber22]

Very interesting topic. Sort of the elephant in the room quite often...

I am not sure what I can add to this. I know that I often regret how short I can be with other engineers (or people in general). But, I think that is only a reflection of my inherent impatience.

As far as a specific topic: I am generally disappointed with the battles between the younger and elder engineers. All else aside, each generation has a different set of skills that can be learned from the other. It is the harmony of those skills that makes the big picture complete.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[desertfox]

Actually one of the rudest things that happens is when you respond to a post and neither the OP or anyone else responds in kind, so in reality you can be rude by doing nothing at all.

 

[GregLocock]

I'm not going to answer that.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[KENAT]

lacajun, good man, meh the jury is out on that one but on a good day I try so thanks.

As to your cannibalism metaphor, it occurs to me that in some species cannibalism is at least in part a way of weeding out the week - e.g. the mother of some species may eat her own young if they are disabled etc.

In a human context that seems extremely harsh, but in a career/profession, maybe not?

In work I learned long ago that colleagues can be categorized by both ease to work with/pleasantness of personality and by competence at the job.

Favorite is obviously a competent colleague who is also easy to get along with.

2nd favorite is a competent colleague who may be hard to get along with or even outright obnoxious. At the end of the day we're here to work not for happy fun time so I'd prefer this person to the next. I will generally learn to work around a competent colleagues eccentricities or outright unpleasantness. Heck, sometimes they may be the grit that takes my edge off as someone above alluded to. I may moan about them occasionally or find them frustrating but if I think about it they're worth the effort.

3rd is an incompetent colleague who is very pleasant. I'm sorry, but if you can't do the job, or learn to do the job in a reasonable time frame with reasonable help from me then you aren't really much use as a colleague. You may make a great friend, but not a great colleague.

Worst is obviously an incompetent a$$hole - cue the MBA comments.

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[IRstuff]

I think that it would be nice to be able to categorize people that well. As with autism spectrum disorder, competency is a distribution, and often, it's weaknesses in particular subdisciplines that make work interactions difficult. I've got coworkers that are VERY competent in their area of expertise, but, they've chosen to drill down to be the experts, and so are not necessarily competent to deal with higher altitude issues, i.e., the "big picture." I, on the other hand, am a generalist, so I lack the competency for the minute details.

I don't see why either of us is precluded from being being a "real" engineer; in fact, I would argue that "everything" is unnecessary and inefficient, since specialization is necessary for division of labor. Your body is an example of specialization, and there's a post in the joke thread about the various parts of the body. We can't all be leaders, or want to be, and we can't all be Sheldon Coopers, or want to be. Life and civilization would be untenable if everyone were a complete expert in their field.

One odd thing about the emphasis on STEM education is what would happen if EVERYONE decided to be a computer programmer? Who would wait tables, bus and wash dishes? Or, design the hardware for the Internet of Things?

TTFN
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[KENAT]

IRstuff, sure there is variation in how competent and how easy to get along people are, and they can vary for the same person in different situations. I'm admittedly painting broad strokes.

However, my system has worked for me so far so I'll stick with it for now.;-)

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[cranky108]

On the other hand, rudeness is sometimes necessary. My example is the person who stops in the parking lot entrance to talk to someone who is leaving. Yea I am going to honk my horn, being rude to interrupt the conversation. As a matter of fact it is just necessary to be rude at times.

As for being rude to other engineers. Someone above made a good point above. Do your homework, and look things up. And yes I sometimes don't look things up, maybe I just don't trust Wickopedia.
But do some basics.

If you are out of your league, just state that (if your a student, I don't want to help). And sometimes the struggle is what you need to learn.

 

[1gibson]

It's about efficiency. Sometimes the most efficient way to get your point across is to say "that is a terrible idea for a number of reasons, please consider blah blah blah instead."

Blunt but polite is usually my style. Some people like it, some don't, but the information is exchanged either way and they can decide if they like me later.

 

[Maui]

People may not remember what you said, but they will certainly remember how you make them feel. And engineers seem to be oblivious to this for the most part. Being insensitive and instilling feelings of hostility or anger in others when trying to make your point can come back to haunt you. Ask anyone who's ever been married.

Maui

 

[lacajun]

There is a lot of variation in ability and that is obvious getting through engineering school. A spectrum of people graduate, which is good, I think. I learned from those deemed by most to be "not too intelligent." They asked insightful questions that never entered my brain.

I run into people almost daily that never return communication and that is rude. I've had people request information from me and never respond after they receive it. That is quite rude. You cannot account for the manners others are taught or otherwise acquire. Since no response seems to be an accepted response today, sometimes I do not respond.

I use blunt but nice, when needed. I've helped some people admit that they were waiting for an opportunity to bully me using blunt but nice. They didn't recognize what their actions were or the motivations behind them. I did and provided assistance in getting it all out on the table. That individual was informed that is unacceptable and whatever is driving it needs to be dealt with. We all have trouble admitting we can be bad to others. But we can. Nothing happens that isn't common to man. That leads me to consider their journey and, if I'm having a decent day, to cut them slack. We all need slack throughout life. As smart as engineers are, we do make mistakes. On a forum, we have the ability to walk away, cool off, think, and respond. I wish we could do that more often.

Sometimes what we think is expedient isn't because the damage caused is not immediately visible.

STEM is another topic on my mind. I've been asked to speak to young girls about pursuing a technical field. It seems wise to let young people think about their own passions, dreams, plans, desires, etc. and pursue those.



Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[lacajun]

Maui, so very true.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC