Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism 18

[lacajun]

Years ago I noted a lot of contention between various engineers here. Since I've not participated here in 2-3 years, it is interesting to see that contention still exists. In essence, we eat our own.

We do not know how to be gracious to others. We seem to lack insight into a fundamental in life, i.e., we're all on different courses.

Younger engineers resent older engineers. Older engineers resent younger engineers. Non-degreed engineers resent degreed engineers. Degreed engineers resent PEs. Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations. We tear each other apart and leave nothing to salvage from the exchange but hurt feelings, more resentment, more anger, and ultimately more damage to the profession of engineering.

We don't stick together. We eat each other alive.

Why can we not consider the many courses others traverse? Whether they tell us or not, can we not consider that their life has been different? Can we not consider that each decade of life has its own flavor? Can we not forbear our differences? Can we respect our differences? Can we rise above cannibalism?

We all have crap in life, from life experiences, and we all have to work on our crap. If we do not, it shows and it will ultimately bite us in the backside.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[IRstuff]

There's been big pushes for upping programming skills, particularly for women.

http://hourofcode.com/us

is one massive push to get children to start programming at early ages. It'll be interesting to see what comes of that, and whether it will drive down salaries.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[MacGruber22]

Maui - very good statement. I think there is some credible social science to back that claim.

I often find that how I am perceived trumps what I say. That has some good and bad to it.

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[lacajun]

IRStuff, STEM has been pushed for a few years now. Female enrollment has dropped alarming some. I've been asked to speak to young girls about engineering. The sponsors lose interest, when I state they also need to be told the truth about long hours, sometimes heavy travel, deadlines driven by profit motive, politics both good and bad, etc. They want engineering glamorized into something I do not believe it is. It is not a TV show but real life with real life consequences on large, impersonal and small, personal scales. I also believe engineering is a great and wonderful profession, which the bulk of the world is clueless about. It is one reason I would like to see us pull together to promote the profession and improve things for it across the world for generations to come. I may be idealistic but that's my mind.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

You mean engineering is not everything they said it was? I know a little sarcastic, but we were all told how good things were as an engineer. But they almost never talk about the bad part of any employment choices.
Being Honest is the better choice. I think it more respectful.

Do you ever hear how great it is to work for minimum wage?

 

[IRstuff]

I dunno; my engineering career has been GREAT! I love what I do, and I get paid way more than minimum wage to do it. What's not to love?

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[MacGruber22]

That is the attitude, IRstuff!

"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."

 

[moltenmetal]

I love what I do and engineering is a perfect fit for my skills, interests and aptitudes.

However, I do not sell it like soap to kids as the perfect professional choice for anybody halfway interested in math or science. I do not confuse my own success, entering the profession over 25 years ago in a completely different set of economic and trade/societal conditions, with the prospects for CURRENT graduates from engineering programs. Doing so is irresponsible.

It isn't for everyone, that's for sure!

I do think it's very important that both girls AND boys be advised to keep their options open by keeping up their math and science courses through to the end of high school. If they shut off that part of their education too soon, many doors close to them- not just engineering.

Note that the rest of this is based on labour market data for Ontario, Canada, and for Canada in general. Your own mileage may vary. And to those who think this is off topic, which I do not think that it is, I apologize in advance.

An engineering degree here offers a chance- not a particularly good chance- to get a job as an engineer after graduating with a Bachelor's. Right now, looking at the industry salary surveys, that's a job which pays a little better than being a teacher here in Ontario at the outset, and exactly the SAME as being a (unionized school board) teacher after about 10 years of experience- without the need to spend an additional year (eventually that will be two years) in teacher's college. It is also seen as a good, or at least adequate, prequalification for a bunch of entry-level and otherwise undifferentiated "business" jobs. Teachers too are in oversupply, but twice as many teaching grads work as teachers as engineering grads here work in engineering. And engineering grads are almost exactly as likely as the AVERAGE graduate of all university programs, to be employed in ANY JOB either six months or two years from graduation. Graduates of any medical program- ANY medical program, not just doctors- are several times more likely to be employed after graduation than are engineering grads.

When asked about engineering as a career choice, I never fail to mention that less than half of engineering graduates actually get work as engineers when they graduate at present, and in steady state terms, less than 30% of engineering graduates work as engineers. I also mention that most of them did not leave the profession by choice- they failed to gain access to the profession because there were too few entry-level opportunities for the number of graduates we're currently pumping out. That has been the case for at least a decade, and it has been getting steadily worse. I always mention this is the current situation and it of course may change in future- but when only 30% of the graduates work as engineers, it would have a LONG way to go and would require major changes before it's ever a profession with reasonable demand for its own graduates.

The people who should pursue engineering are smart enough to figure that out. They're merely seeking a piece of paper that legitimizes, in the eyes of others, what they've probably already been doing for most of their lives. Read the Hobbies forum for some insight into that! The right people don't need to be sold on it, and overselling it isn't helpful.

Engineers, and especially their associations, licensure bodies and learned societies, need to get it through their collective thick skulls that there is a HUGE difference between promoting the (undeniable) value of the engineering profession to society, from its prospects as a career choice for graduates.

 

[JNieman]

@lacajun - after living in Lafayette for 7-8 years, I will have to say that you will not experience the same graciousness from the rest of the world/country that you get day-to-day wherever Ms "lacajun" resides! Even if it's in Baton Rouge (I didn't particularly care for the year I worked in BR as much as Lafayette) but I do agree that communication is morphing in the digital age. Or maybe, being in my early 30s, I'm simply encountering a newer/higher level of business conversation that's more 'hustle and bustle' and less pleasant.

I do appreciate your condemnation of "no response [is an] accepted response" because I'm very guilty of that. To me, I feel people are more 'sensitive' to "over communication" so I try not to clutter their inbox with my name, and make my actual responses more valuable in their scarcity "Oh, JNieman sent me something, it must need attention" as opposed to "oh.. another one from JNieman, I'll see what it is later" but I admit I have not considered the likelihood that I come off as rude because of that. And you're right. Ignoring someone's communication to me (especially if it was requested by me) is rude. A simple "thank you" "That's exactly what I wanted, thanks" "I appreciate that!" can go a long way without wasting much time.

@Maui -
"People may not remember what you said, but they will certainly remember how you make them feel."
Very poignant. I like how you stated that. I am one who has a big problem remembering the exact words someone says but I have a great memory/sense for "the gist of their intent/idea/motivation/feelings" so I should assume that others have a similar mindset at times and be careful how I tailor my communication.

Thanks for the 'soft skills' tips, all.

I always go back-and-forth in my head on whether or not I should "waste" time by sandwiching my communication in pleasantries. Will coworkers/colleagues/clients/customers feel like I'm wasting their time, being condescending, or patronizing them? I very much dislike it when people come into my office and immediately start off with "I know you're busy but..." "I'm sorry to interrupt, I know you're just like me and have a lot on your plate.." "Hey, I know this is a weird request, it's not in our normal process, but do you have a minute to.." they are time wasters and it immediately puts me in the mindset of "Ok you're just wasting my time because I know you're interrupting me, I know this isn't our process, everyone is busy so I don't need the reminder" and I have to find the negative attitude before I get started. I just want to know what the problem is so we can immediately put our heads together and solve it. I don't need apologies. But I understand some are ... less robotic... than I am. I think that in treating people the way /I/ like to be treated (the golden rule sometimes isn't so golden) that I sometimes leave people feeling hurt or attacked unintentionally. What's the other one? The "platinum rule" some business bulls***er once told me? "Treat people the way THEY want to be treated." He makes a living by BS'ing engineers and business leaders with intangible personality crap, so I disdain him, but there is a lot of valuable lessons among the horde of fluff he presents.

Anyways, to make a long post short (too late) or add the "tl;dr":

I don't think this site is too bad about the vitriol. Possibly I'm used to much harsher environments. Possibly I'm used to a more cutthroat development process where people are acclimated to having their ideas going into a 'shredding machine' at a round table and having to immediately spitball better ideas. However, I think eng-tips is very... professional. Compared to most other professional online sources, I find this place to be the most accommodating and least judgmental of posters. Sometimes you can tell when someone is insinuating that the OP or person-they-are-responding-to is "inferior" in some perceived way, but it is usually wrapped in "business appropriate" language, better or worse.

It's possible we don't frequent the more cannibalistic areas of this site though. I try to stay out of the more "off topic" and "political hot topics" on this site. I ventured in to some of the 'climate change' threads before and it was as if this place was just another Facebook discussion rather than a round-table of professionals, at times. So I don't go there. I get that level of discussion elsewhere.

_________________________________________
NX8.0, Solidworks 2014, AutoCAD, Enovia V5

 

[lacajun]

I love what I have done. Engineering is a great profession. But like everything else, there are aspects of it that some may not want to live with through a lifetime. I know some that flipped between professions and finally learned, after years of doing their last decision, they would have been happier and probably more prosperous doing a trade. Tell the truth and let the individual decide.

I know some that thought of nursing until they learned they'd have someone else's vomit on them.

JNieman, my family has very long roots in Louisiana. I lived there most of my life. I don't know how things are there now but that was the best state I worked in as an engineer. Being pleasant and good to people never hurts. Getting the job done is important. Learning is important. Having good people skills and exercising those are equally important; some would argue more important than the technical stuff. I learned too late in my career how important exercising those people skills is. One criticism a manager told me, after I left that company, is that I never gave anyone in management an opportunity to get to know me, which hampered my career. They viewed me as very competent but aloof, too aloof, and that led to no opportunities for them to know me as a human being. I suspect that led to too little trust.

Business is business. Ultimately, I file my business licenses. If I don't do it, there is no business. People are always behind business. You'll find your way and a good balance. You're thinking and quite capable to strike the balance you need.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[SNORGY]

lacajun,

Thanks for starting the thread. It hits home and resonates with me.

The person who taught me the most about this very sort of thing is my wife, who is not an Engineer, not a Technologist, not a Designer / Draftsperson, and, oddly enough, not an MBA.

Her philosophy is that we all have interactions every day with other people. We should always strive to make the other person feel better after the interaction than they did before.

I know that there will be the sharks in the water who will close in and attack that statement under the guise of claims regarding unspecified context - those sharks, should they appear, well...welcome. "Have a nice day." (as Happy Bunny would say - Google for context). In any case, I strive to live by this, although at times it's not my first choice in behaviors.

Thanks, Maui, for saying this in different words.

KENAT,

"Worst is obviously an incompetent a$$hole - cue the MBA comments."

I almost bit on this. Commendable effort! I chose to give you a star instead.

 

[TheTick]

I can be prickly, but I try not to be pointlessly cruel. I don't hurt people just for fun. (I'd be lying if I said it was never actually fun, though.)

Do I intentionally try to hurt people? Well... sometimes... but not without reason. I think it comes down to the feeling that if I believe a person shouldn't feel good about what he's done or said, I'll deliver a well-deserved b!+ch-slap.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

 

[lacajun]

I try to leave most people with a positive interaction but I don't always succeed either. We're all human and that is to be accounted for. However, when the same people are going at each other and others, a line of absurd rudeness has been crossed, which leaves a bad impression on me. I am pretty ordinary so I suspect those caustic posts leave a bad impression on others, too.

I can only take so much negativity. I know people that focus on what they don't like about others and many of aspects of life. That sucks the life force out of everyone. I want to focus on what I do like about others and all of life. It is easier on thee and those around thee.

I agree with that Proverbs and have used it throughout my life. But I try not to tear them down in the process. I am blunt but try not to be destructive by attacking their personage. The man who wanted to bully me is a prime example. I did not attack his personage, which is easily attacked; however, I did let him know that behavior is unacceptable and why. I do not believe he understood his behavior to be that of a bully. I have more recent examples of bullying in which I think the parties do not understand their behaviors to be bullying. It's part of their personal dynamics probably stemming from their family dynamics.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC