Encouraging women to enroll in engineering 28

[cbiber]

Another spin-off from the "Boot camp" thread in this forum --

It's pretty clear that by and large, most engineering fields have a low percentage of females. In my experience, the percentage gets lower as the people get older. In fact, many of my female engineering school colleagues aren't engineers anymore.

Some specific topics to discuss:
-- why aren't girls interested in enrolling in engineering?
-- why do they drop out of engineering programs (do they do so at a disproportionate rate?)
-- how can girls be encouraged to pursue engineering?

In my area, there's a "Saturday Academy" with specific classes to address some of this; there's also an organization called AWSEM for middle school girls (I'll have to post the links later). Other ideas?

Cathy Biber

Biber Thermal Design

http://www.biberthermal.com

 

[leanne]

samv, congrats on landing a new job that you enjoy...

I subbed while I was unemployed as well. Unfortunately, I was not lucky enough to get a long-term math position. I was called for a variety of short-term assignments from primary school through high school. I hated it. Being a sub in Canada may be different, but when I was subbing, it was like being a babysitter.

 

[samv]

leanne - high school math in canada was also like babysitting, and I had to prepare the daily notes, problems and even tests all for the same pay as the sub teacher who just pops in for the day and leaves. not to mention my classes were difficult ones - two real prof.s had already quit and it was only september!!! can you believe that! It sure gave me a new perspective on raising my boys - they will be most respectful and interested students (or else!!)

 

[leanne]

Speaking of encouraging women to enroll in engineering:

http://engr.smu.edu/alumni/ebulletin/aug2003_women.html

 

[leanne]

Another interesting blurb, the first woman graduate from SMU's engineering school:

http://engr.smu.edu/alumni/alumni_remember.html

I guess my alma mater is obvious now even to those who've never clicked on my profile

 

[pablo02]

I personally think that men & women generally (not as a hard and fast rule) think differently (as samv put it "I do agree that women and men are different&quot -- and although I think society affects some development in children, many tests show that small boys and small girls do tend to gravitate toward diffent activities -- again, these are generalities and apply to these "groups" and not individuals...

women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W) --

to get to my point, engineering has historically involved those activities aligned more with the way (most) men's brains are wired than with (most) women...

is this a bad thing? only if you want to be bad... the result is, fewer women will find this an interesting field to pursue as a career -- the challenge is to encourage those that have such an interest to pursue it... and make it rewarding to them... rewarding to any one who pursues this type of carrer..

I think overall, as mentioned by previous posters, we should make math and science (problem solving) more available, more intersting to ALL kids in the very early years of school; make summer jobs as interns more available to young women in high school, and encourage and support those that come to work at our companies...

above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise...

 

[electricpete]

You captured my sentiments exactly pablo. To go a little further, I think men AS A GENERAL RULE score better on early scholastic math aptitude tests for whatever reason. If that is true, I don't see any reason we are surprised there are more men than woman in engineering. I certainly don't see any reason to be alarmed about it. By all means talk to the kids if it makes you feel better. By no means do anything to create an unlevel playing field based upon sex, race etc.

 

[VivK]

I can only speak from my own experience.

My dad is a civil engineer so he was encouraging when I decided to do mechanical engineering. Mum (and other relatives) was the one who was worry that the work might be too dirty, the environment too male dominated etc.

There was only 3 other females in the class - that made it 10%. I had no problems with the guys in the class, we all got on well. What I found though, was that most of the guys were already quite familiar with mechanical things, from working with their cars, workshop subject at high school etc. I felt that I had much to catch up on in that area. You see I went to a all girls high school and had to endure craft lessons instead of doing cool things in metal class (how I envied my brother!).

Ok so hands-on stuff is only a small part of engineering, but I think it's an important part. I felt that girls were often discourage from doing those hands-on class, discourage from taking things apart and seeing how they works etc. I think the fact that engineering is about applying theory to make/create things should appeal to a lot of female, but nobody told them that's what engineering is. Things are a bit better now I think with awareness programs.

 

[tmc1]

Female make up almost 50% of the population but why not many female engineers? If the work needs field surveying and inspection working under the hot sun, female engineers are in disadvantage and more so if they get married and have kids so career interruption! One suggestion is to encourage them to more into engineering management and be supervisors or managers. They can solve people problems better than male.

 

[leanne]

tmc1:

Why should it cause a career interruption having kids? Other than the obvious time off for recovery.

VivK:

I did not attend an all girls school, however, girls were strongly DISCOURAGED from taking shop & such.

pablo02: women (again, generally) navigate by landmark, men by direction (N, S, E, W)

I use both, but I always attributed it to being ambidextrous. Navigating by landmarks alone can be "dangerous" - new roads are built, old buildings are removed by fire or bulldozer, new buildings go up

above all else, don't make them "tokens" as happened in the past, don't over compensate them, don't promote them when not deserved, don't hold them above others -- they should, however, be full members of the team... it creates resentment in everyone otherwise

This is true for any group considered to be a "minority" in any area. It's not fair to anyone to promote based only on gender, race, etcetera - it sets the promotee up for failure and damages the "team" in general.

 

[Maui]

I strongly agree that hiring or promotion decisions based upon race or gender are blatant forms of discrimination. In the March issue of Advanced Materials & Processes there is an ad for a faculty position at the Colorado School of Mines. The wording that appears at the bottom of this ad is included in almost every advertisement for a full time faculty position regardless of the school: "The Colorado School of Mines is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer and is committed to enhancing the diversity of its faculty and staff, and therefore, encourage applications from women, minorities, veterans, and persons with disabilities". Is this employer establishing a level playing field in terms of their hiring practices?



Maui

 

[lainey]

Hey all! I am a female student at the University of Waterloo in Ontario in Mechanical engineering. There are 100ish people in our class and 9 girls. I think im safe to say that it is only the guys that are complaining. The girls get all the attention from the professors and are the first to get Co-op placements and interviews. Out of the 9 girls in my class im pretty sure we had 50% of the interviews for our class, maybe more. (im not sure if you're familiar with the co-op program, it's a pattern of 4 months on school, 4 months in a work placement for 5 years)

I got 10 interviews and 5 job offers. My friend Jen in the class had 13 interviews and 9 job offers! Im actually kinda glad there's not a lot of females in my class, because then it would take away from our uniqueness. But i feel that having some females in engineering is important to add diversity in opinions and ideas.

I think someone compared this situation to males in nursing, but i think it is a bit different than that. Females in engineering are commended for being with the best(aka male engineers), where males in nursing get a different reaction.
It's similar to a female playing on the pga tour versus a male playing on the lpga.

Being in the class i definitely feel like i have to be "one of the boys" and have found a new interest in car models.
Maybe Barbie hates math. However, i love math and often find myself helping the boys with it

This forum is awesome. i get to see real engineers at work, and also get an idea of what i want to do when im out of school, or on my next co-op term.

GO LEGO!
Lainey

 

[cbiber]

Maui,
It's easy to put the verbage out front; much harder to change cultural norms and even unspoken perceptions. I myself can hardly believe that I have caught myself thinking, "Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?" ... immediately before I slapped myself. Now where that could have come from, I haven't the foggiest idea -- certainly not something my parents taught me (though they taught me plenty of other things, some of which have deservedly been discarded).

In other words, "level playing field" is hard enough to achieve by itself, let alone tilting it the other (wrong) way. "Encouraging applications" from minority groups is easy to say; getting job offers extended is where the rubber meets the road. Retention long-term is the rest of the story.

It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option (easier when there are brothers whose toys can be envied, or perceptive dads who can have their daughters help them in the garage).

 

[Maui]

Cbiber, if applications are accepted from other properly qualified applicants, but they aren't offered the position because they don't meet the Affirmative Action criteria, then this is unfair. And I have seen this myself. Sometimes in attempting to "level the playing field" by promoting one group of people over another for whatever reason, an unfair advantage is gained by that group of people. Consider the case that was recently tried by the Supreme Court involving the admissions criteria set by the University of Michigan. Undergraduate applicants levied a lawsuit against the University claiming that they were denied admission even though their qualifications exceeded those possessed by minority applicants who were accepted for admission. Apparently, the University gave applicants 20 points toward their total admissions score if they belonged to a minority group. These bonus points made a significant difference in some cases. The Supreme Court ruled that the admission criteria set by the University in this particular aspect of the case was inappropriate, and must be changed. The University did win on some other rulings in the same case.

You state that, "It's evident from reading posts by several women engineers in this forum that propensity towards engineering in girls is demonstrated at a young age. The trick, as some have mentioned, is to encourage the tendency as a viable career option". I believe that fostering a child's enthusiasm for engineering, or science, or whatever they show an apptitude for is behavior that should be encouraged. And this is not limited to boys or girls. Both genders should be included equally. By allowing a child to realize what opportunities are available to them, and supplying appropriate support for them to follow their dreams, I believe that many of the stereotypes associated with particular professions would become obsolete. The question is, how do you get there?

 

[leanne]

LOL @ cbiber

"Oh, she's blonde, what does she know?"

I say this about my son all the time...

"Oh, he's blonde, what does he know?"

 

[flamby]

I think the topic, at large, is unworthy of discussion. The needs of Social justice demand that equal opportunities be created for all sexes, colours and religions, and it all ends there.
Thereafter counting the number of females, whites, christians etc in a particular job or profession is simply pointless.

Sorry, couldn't say it politely.

 

[EnglishMuffin]

But, as in the case of affirmative action for African Americans, just providing equal opportunity is not apparently sufficient, as recently seems to have been at least partially upheld by the US supreme court (although as usual you can't quite figure out exactly what they did say). In order to redress the balance, current thinking appears to say that, at least for a while, you have to bias the system in favor of those who have been discriminated against in the past. Sort of like "overshoot" with a servo system.

 

[FrenchCAD]

Lainey

You described it well, 100th students and only 9 girls. I hear you when you say you don't wanna change it because it gives you more opportunities. Though, I think it's not as fair as it might look. You get better chances because you're a girl (and you admitted it) and because there is no many girls in engineering, and men prefer to hire girls (Yes, believe me ). I can understand you like it being this way. Now, just think at your life in 5 years. You'll be working in the field of engineering, in a world largely dominated by men, with no more professor to give you more attention than the other ones. At this time, I guess you'll think different. I may be wrong of course.

Btw, I studied at U of O, Ontario. Not so far from Waterloo

And I'm glad you enforce the power of the LEGO ;-)

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

 

[electricpete]

"current thinking appears to say that, at least for a while, you have to bias the system in favor of those who have been discriminated against"

I know you have cited some ruling. I'm curious if this is also your opinion, EM?

 

[jb48]

Let's face it, given where the "profession" is going I would have a hard time recommending engineering to anyone. Until we begin to receive the status and respect normally accorded to professionals, most undergraduate engineering programs are going to be populated by people who don't know what their getting into. I've been in this profession for over 25 years and truly enjoy the creative process that engineering can be. That said, its still difficult to put up with the disrespect, uncertainty and impersonlity of most engineering positions. I don't think that engineering education creates "nerds". Rather, it seems that people with better social and communication skills are more likely to see the profession for what it is, and go elsewhere.

I do think that there are social forces which probably make engineering more attractive to men than women. Its not just Barbie saying "math is hard". Its the fact that although sterotypes are changing, girls are still more likely to be given a Barbie, than an erector set, chamistry set, model airplane, etc. When I was a TA, in the early 1980's, I was given the job of teaching an Engineering Graphics class for freshmen (yes, we actually made drawings with pencil and paper back then). I was teaching a lab session which dealt with exploded view drawings, to a class of approximately twenty students, four of whom were female. All four of the women (all of whom were quite intelligent)were having problems with the assignment, while few of the men were. I asked one of the guys who was breezing through the assignment if he had ever done anything like this before, and he replied, "not exactly, but this is just like the directions which used to come with my model airplanes".

I've worked with, and occasionally for, female engineers and found most of them to be very good engineers. They also seemed to have much better communication and socialization skills, probably developed out of necessity, than most of their male counterparts.

As far as I'm concerned, what we need to do is to make this craft which we practice into a real profession. If that can be accomplished, I believe the gender issues will largely take care of themselves as they have in medicine and law. That's not to say that we shouldn't reach to young women, but first we need something more appealing than just a salary to offer them.

 

[electricpete]

"Rather, it seems that people with better social and communication skills are more likely to see the profession for what it is, and go elsewhere."

My first reaction... Ouch. A hard criticism of the profession. My 2nd reaction... it's probably not too far off the mark. Engineering is a great profession as a young engineer. For middle age it seems there are plateau's tough to break unless at some point you make some lateral/upward transition outside of engineering roles. I think if I could I would.