Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs 55

[havesealwilltravel]

A friend of mine sent me the following link:

http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POLICY/2003/061803.html

It is depressing but true. The current high unemployment among engineers is going to continue and not only that it will get worse.

One of the threads in this forum concerns itself with encouraging women to go into engineering. If you care about the person, be honest with them (and yourself). Engineering as a career for a large number of people is over. A bright young person would be smarter to pursue another profession.

I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living.

Globalization is good only for individuals with substantial capital to invest overseas. For the rest of us who work for a living it has done nothing but lower wages and increase unemployment.

Please read the article !!!!!!!

 

[Binary]

A bit of a tangent but I just purchased a new laser level which said, "Engineered in the USA, Mfd in Thailand"

That's the first time I've ever seen a tag like that.

 

[EngineerDave]

Zapster,

I think greed isn't the issue. Concern for a solution is.

I agree the things don't look good for the standard of living in our country. I see a big drop.

What are the answers? On a personal level, multiple streams of income are a must. One can't survive on just one solid engineering job like they used to. I took a 30% pay cut relative to my previous job so I could work again. Now I am looking for ways to gain income from other sources.

There are plenty of Americans willing to work their butts off. They just don't want to work to build something that will be taken away from them.

I sure didn't appreciate all my design work going to Mexico and eventually my job as well. Many of us work hard to set up production lines on various programs there. All the hard work can get pulled under you, but what do you do? You work under the circumstances your faced with.

The only way for wealth now, is to work harder, faster and focus on multiple streams of income. Be willing to change jobs and continually learn new things.

On a greater scale, it really bothers me that our economy as a whole and many people I know will continue to suffer. It's really bad seeing the standard of living suffer.

 

[buzzp]

Multiple incomes are not necessary to make a living. What drives the need for more income is a higher standard of living, I need a bigger house, motor home, motorcycle, a Mercedes, all not necessary.

 

[arunmrao]

buzzp you must have been influenced by some oriental guru. You are declining to have more possessions ,you are on path to salvation. But Americanism is more about creating needs where it is not needed,like the colas or tobacco giants.

 

[buzzp]

'Americanism' may fit your definition in present day society but in the origin of America it was more about freedom; freedom to vote, freedom to bear arms, freedom to make a decent living. Needs were basic then; food, fire, and shelter. What more do we need? I am not saying the desire to have the things I mentioned is bad but what is the cost of getting these material things? no time with your kids/spouse to give them the attention they want and need, stress, more committed time. I like material things like the next person but I am not willing to sacrifice much of anything (time) to gain more possessions. Especially at the expense of my kids or wife.
Yes we all need a decent car to drive but do we need two new cars? I think not. Do we need to have the biggest house on the block or drive the nicest car? I think not. People who think this way are only looking to be admired from those around them. How else can you explain the need of a family of four to live in a 6000 square foot house? This is the only explanation I can think of.
Oh look where the cola and tobacco took us- both are bad for your health.

 

[funnelguy]

Oriental guru? Aren't Japanese people paying money to suck on flavored oxygen? What about prawns and Harleys? Not all oriental people eschew the practice of overconsumption.

Also, tobacco use and manufacture is not limited to 'Merica. Right?

 

[rhodie]

Zapster:

Please do not flame me into oblivion, but I see this hatred towards "Americanism" as nothing more than an advanced stage of envy.

The USA rode a grand wave of wealth and self-sufficentcy after WWII ended, being the world's primary manufacturer for the many rebuilding years. That reality is passed. We still enjoy many of the entitlement benefits extended to our nation during the "New Deal" recovery package and during the "Golden Years" of the late 40's, 50's and 60's, all ideas that have outlived their service life. The reason these programs still exist are a combination of some complacentcy but mostly goodwill.

Don't try to tell me that I live beyond my means or that I take more than I am entitled to. I have worked hard for everything that I have, as I came from a lower-class and uneducated family. I now share much of what I have with them, just like I envision the typical Chinese or Indian professional doing with his family.

I am insulted and angered that world perception sees me as "undeserving" and a resource hog. Don't critize me for taking advantage of previous successes. Our churches, charities, and citizens make sure the US provides more aid to needful nations than any other country- but that shouldn't be our primary priority. We are obligated to ourselves first and foremost. This is why something needs to be done about the trade imbalances and labor problem.

I could have been born anything else, but I was born American and refuse to feel guilty for that.

 

[EngineerDave]

Well put Rhodie. I am glad I was born an American. I can't feel guilty for being given more opportunities. And it is human nature to not let those opportunities be taken away from us if it is all possible.

Money for me is security. It is the knowledge that your hard work will be rewarded and you will remain employable as long as you maintain the skills necessary to compete in an ever changing society.

The trade balance threatens all of that. Pure and simple.

 

[Zapster]

Rhodie,

Why would I flame you?

I too am an American, and proudly so. I believe that the difference is in perspective. You say you earned it, I say that Americans are opportunists who take it. I consider myself an opportunist, and what better place to live than America, land of opportunity. I love and hate the system; however, I am not ashamed to tell the truth about our behavior. Many people live a life of denial because they can’t handle the truth.

You claim that the USA rode a grand wave of wealth and self- sufficiency after WWII. I claim that this was, and is, the era of greed. WWII created the background for the National Debt. Instead of retiring this debt (pay it off), the post WWII generation chose to pass this debt on to their children. The great society was well on its way. Now the National Debt is $23,200 per citizen. Subtract out the youth and elderly whose productivity is marginal and you end up with $45,000 per working stiff in America that are paying for this debt. If you get paid more than the average income ($30,000/year) you get to pay a greater share of this debt. An experienced engineer will earn over $60,000/year, twice what the average worker earns; so adjust their share of the national debt and it come to $90,000. I am disgusted with the behavior of those who started this trend of spending money and passing the debt on to the next generation. How else can this be described besides greed. I know Rhodie, they earned it, just like you earned it.

We live in a society where the richest segment of Americans is demanding the most. It is our retired mothers and fathers who are the richest and it they who demand their entitlements. After all they earned it. Right Rhodie? No, they stole it from the working class of today. They claim that they paid their social security and are entitled to the benefits all the while they supported the government spending that got us to where we are today. How can someone say they paid for something when they spent the money on something else? Social security is funded by our paychecks and not theirs.

The least productive in our society are claiming a large chunk of my paycheck as well. The great society experiment resulted in a greater number of people living below the poverty level. I won’t go into it here. But it is a fact. One way to think of this is that you get what you pay for. We paid for a lot of people in need and we got more of them. Thanks to the great society experiment.

Now when someone hires an Engineer in America they get to pay a lot of overhead. They get to pay for the Engineer’s portion of the national debt. They get to pay wages for a retired generation who spent their money on the get society. They get to pay wages for the unproductive on government assistance. They get to pay the wage of the government administrator who doles out and collects the taxes. Gee! they get to pay for four people when only one of them is working. How can this be completive in a world market?

Rhodie, I wish that I could get others to stop asking for our government to do everything for everyone, and pay off the national debt. However, it is not going to happen. After all they earned it.

So, I have decided not to try to change the world. No, I will just do what ever other American does, and take advantage of the opportunities that America offers. The difference is that I know that I did not earn it, because, I know that I am leaving less opportunity for my children than I have. Truly this sickens me.

 

[funnelguy]

I think Zapster makes some valid points insofar as entitlements and our national debt and the collective cowardice preventing any solutions. A star for that. I do enjoy these forums!

 

[FrenchCAD]

I agree as well. I would extend those views to the whole numbers of all "advanced" (i don't like this term) countries which have a descent (and more) way of life. France is not really different from US on that matter. I think Canada, UK, Germany etc all live on this principles.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

 

[MTE85DRM]

Canada is guilty of the same poor spending habits. Zapster is right when he notes that it is our children that will pay the price in lost opportunity. If you look strictly at the education system in Canada it is not uncommon to see young people starting out their careers with
student loans in excess of $50,000. My brother in-law recent graduated in engineering from Queens, his student loans are well over the $50,000 mark - he did a masters which added to the grand total. I have friend that graduated from medical school with a speciality in orthopaedic surgery his student loans are over $100,000. Tuition has increased drastically for engineering in many schools up from about $1600 in y1990 to over $4000 in y2000. How can a country expect a healthy economy when their best and brightest are saddled with these huge debts.

 

[corus]

MTE85DRM has a good point and you would expect this debt to deter people from going to University but the number of students applying for higher education has actually increased in the UK. The system we have is that the loan is paid off at a very low interest rate and only if their salaries exceed a certain amount (an amount too low in my opinion). This has resulted in us having the most highly educated MacDonalds staff in the world, I expect.

 

[Maui]

"Do you want fries with that?" is not a question that any engineering graduate should ever have to ask a customer. MTE85DRM has a good point, but I suspect that the debt loads are even higher than he has quoted. Ten years ago the average medical student could expect to borrow $100,000 in student loans by the time they earned their medical degree in New York. And the tuition alone at many private engineering schools in the US today will exceed $100,000 for a four year education. This makes it difficult to foresee an increase in the number of engineering students in the near future with the job market in such a tenuous condition. So what can we expect to happen with a continuously rising national debt as well as personal debt and a stagnating economy? No doubt that the number of personal as well as business bankruptcies will be on the rise. Are there any economists out there who can shed some light on this?

 

[Binary]

$100k to become an orthopaedist who's going to earn upwards of $250k per year after residency is a great investment.

$100k to become an engineer seems like a lousy investment.

Last night began my enrollment in the master's program at the local university. As I was walking back to my truck I passed a university cop. It struck me as ironic that the university cops are probably going to do better than the graduate engineers once you add in time being laid off, benefits, and retirement plan.

I sometimes regret not having joined the CHP when I was 21. I'd be earning more now and have a much more secure future.

 

[arunmrao]

Higher education in India is heavily subsidised by the government and it is not very difficult for the intelligent and bright students to get placed in such elite educational institutions. There are opportunities to earn for living expenses too. I have been a beneficiary of such an education system.

About 80% of engineers and doctors from such institutions leave for greener pastures never to return home. It is a gift from a poor country to a rich one.

This is being heavily debated by the politicians about the role of government in depriving the needy and poor where basic infrastructure facilities are lacking. But being a vibrant democracy such acts of omissions by the beneficiary students cannot be stopped.

 

[Zapster]

Arunmrao,

How much is spent on the not very intelligent and dim students in India. Here in America we spend the most on those that will produce the least (no student left behind) at the expense to all. We don't have to worry about these students leaving America. If you want to keep more of your educational investment, try helping those who need the most help.

Unfortunately, it is the imbalance of compassion that makes it cheaper to hire an engineer in India than America. India knows it cannot afford compassion on the same scale as America. Americans just haven’t learned that we can’t afford the scale of compassion that is here while keeping our current standard of living. Compassionate Americans just pass the expense off to their children with debt and a probability of a lower standard of living for their kids.

 

[EngineerDave]

Some of what I'm reading generates new thoughts and comments for discussion.

In many countries I am told that more thought is given as to career aptitudes and placement. I.E., your career is chosen or decided on for you by your talents and performance. You may not truly have a chose for your degree in college in some countries.

This is true to an extent in the U.S., as a poor performer in math will have a difficult time being accepted into engineering school, let alone completing it.

However, if we did have a more formal system for matching talents and aptitudes, perhaps a younger child could find a career that he is more likely to excel at? Would this be more beneficial for the economy? I think so.

But it would truly limit the freedoms that Americans treasure, included the dream that one can become anything.

 

[Speedy]

Have a look at this article;

http://www.unison.ie/business/it_sector/stories.php3?ca=147&si=1040513

In Ireland it is generally accepted that our recent economic success can be attributed to US investment. It now seems that we too are becoming too expensive. The same too, it appears, can be said of Signapore.

 

[MTE85DRM]

I was born in Ireland in 1965 moved to Canada with my parents in 1975. My parents spent 35 years in Ireland and are always amazed at the economic changes in that country. It has become very expensive to live in Ireland - especially Dublin. The price of housing is ridiculous - my uncle sold his 1200 ft2 townhouse for $400,000 (Can $).

Is the education system still free ?