Environmental disaster in the making

[Artisi]

This is well worth the time spent to review this presentation in full.

Please pass onto all your friends and associates who care about the future.

http://youtu.be/84zIj_EdQdM

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[BigInch]

Lighting a match and throwing it under the bed?
There must be better things we can think of.

Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone. - Pablo Picasso

 

[stanier]

Artisi,

Generalisations will always go to the extremes to make the point.

I try and strive for efficiency in systems. i dont believe all the clap trap about global warming being man made as the science isnt complete. Many such as the univeristy of East Anglia have lied to get a result.However if the planet is warming then engineers will need to fix it.

Even Lovelock has said that man is too selfish to reach agreement on limiting any man made climate change so we will just have to engineer things to avoid the consequences.

I try and instill in young engineers the need for social responsibility. The need to follow the tenets of our Institutions that put public interest before profit. The message gets confused when the do gooder left wing loonies take the extreme view.

Take an example. We have school speed zones here to protect children from traffic. mainly because of slack parents. Now one would think that is a good thing. however traffic in rush hour is slowed. What is the cost to the economy? Millions of dollars. If that money was spent on health in hospitals how many lives could be saved? Difficult o argue this case because the loss of one child is head line news and the anti car lobby get involved. but howmany kids with cancer could be saved with more investment in research? this is hard to quantify and thus argue.

"Sharing knowledge is the way to immortality"
His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

http://waterhammer.hopout.com.au/

 

[evelrod]

I guess the world looks different from Sydney. I'm speechless!

Rod

 

[patprimmer]

Rod

I think it depends on how rather than from where you look at it.

It is not that long ago that BHP seriously polluted and poisoned a river in Bougainvill with dire consequences on the down stream populations. It was at a time when they would not dare such conduct in Australia, so it was with deliberate disregard rather than careless disregard. So much for conscience and ethics of mining companies if left to volunteer to do the right thing.

We have similar issues with mining companies extracting coal seam gas. They are allowed by law to enter private property and mine on it. They are supposed to do no damage, but often they do with an oppps, sorry, tuff luck response. I think brine or heavily mineral loaded water is sometimes spilt, killing off vegetation for years to come.

That argument is do we want a short term profit for long term loss of productivity of the soil and consequential damage in the meantime from the lack of vegetation. The farmers in general, pretty much reject the offers of compensation as not being enough considering the long term damage.

Oh, and it is quite off topic re the OP, but school zones here are often of dubious value and very poorly administrated from a safety point of view but harshly enforced from a revenue point of view.

One fairly poorly implemented school zone is in Castle Hill, which is I think close to staniers home.

Another really stupid one is in Pennant Hills which is not far from Castle Hills and is on a very major arterial road.




Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[stanier]

Pat,

The coal seam gas industry is adopting RO to clean up the water that is discharged. It was the EPA that allowed evaporation ponds in Queensland. This proven RO technology doesnt appear to appease the green movement. The coal seam gas has been recovered south of Sydney for decades without all this fuss.

Would the engineers in BHP have much say over the discharge process adopted in PNG? If so they should be held to be criminally liable. Was it some government official who took a bribe in PNG to relax their EPA regulations?

Anyone in Australia can call themselves an engineer. There is no regulation like in other countries or professions. Until engineers have something to lose for stuffing it up there will be little relief. Perhaps the move to reform work cover legislation amongst the states will help. It makes engineers responsible. So perhaps engineers will get the authority that goes with the responsibility.

"Sharing knowledge is the way to immortality"
His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

http://waterhammer.hopout.com.au/

 

[patprimmer]

I agree many greenies are incompetent and irresponsible.

I also think that management is often greedy and irresponsible.

I also see many engineers. Some are also greenies, some are also management. Some are greedy, some are incompetent and some are irresponsible. Some are all three, some are none of the above.

I know we have an identification issue with the word engineer and even motor mechanics are starting to seriously call themselves automotive maintenance engineers and airline maintenance staff have long called themselves engineers, however you still need a licence here to practice types of engineering that has you designing buildings and structures for anything much larger than a garden shed.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[Artisi]

I think that many "greenies" or what ever you want to call then are nutters, just jumping on the band wagon of those who are genuinely concerned and who have nothing better to do than make trouble for someone else. That aside, there are many genuine concerned people, some highly qualified in many fields, some with little education but overall, concerned that without their voice being raised we would have Ok Tedi mines, rivers dammed, tailing ponds leaching into the rivers and ground water, nuclear power stations without any safety provisions, oil tankers using environmentally sensitive areas without any regard or ramifications if they just happen (oop's) to run aground.

Left to the companies trying to maximise their profits, and with CEO's only interested in their yearly bonus what happens down-stream of their plant is tough sh*t for the locals - this is "NIMBY" applied in reverse - not in my backyard so why should I worry "NIMBYSWSIW".

Spin it how ever you like, concentrating toxic materials that may well been there before, usually locked up with some other material and probably fairly inert, is looking for trouble now or in the future.

I would guarantee that if you approached every person in favour of these projects with a request to dump just a couple bucket fulls of this "safe toxic" material on their property to ease the problems at process site you would get a entirely different reaction to the one they openly subscribe to.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution, others might well have but, I am still concerned with what I see as well as what we / you / I can't see happening.

As an example, many years back I was involved with a below ground water handling problem on a site at Botany NSW, this site was a very large chemical company who's major plant was located there (unmaned of course). A large number of well-points were installed into the ground to reduce the water table for below ground construction, quite normal as this area of Sydney at the time which was under development. At recovery time of the well-points we started extracting what was left of the galvanised steel riser pipes and wellscreens but there was so much chemical damage many pipes were no longer in existance - so we just cut everything off at ground level walked away, naturally we billed the company for the loss of equipment.

At ground level, everything on this plant was nice and clean, etc etc but what was happening underground in the water table was another stort. The toxic soup may still be there or now spread out into other areas.


It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[BigInch]

Just mandating water intakes to be located downstream of plant & town discharges would go a very, very long way to cleaning up most of the problems.

Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone. - Pablo Picasso

 

[patprimmer]

stanier.
I see I think I know who you are talking about. They had a very Imperial character.

It is a fact that the term Botany wool came from the use of the ponds in the area being used to scour wool before export. Botany was the chosen site because of the purity of the water at the time. It is now purified beyond use due to poisoning of the water table.

I worked for them for quite a while in their Engineering Plastics office in Macquarie Street.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[Artisi]

BigInch - shouldn't that be upstream of the plant - getting your own **** back.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[patprimmer]

Artisi

He said water intake, not discharge.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[Artisi]

woop's - I promise to read carefully in future.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[evelrod]

Didn't mean to intrude on y'alls environmental problems, we have enough of our own here. Pat, I feel that I have known you and your ideas for a long time, even if not in person. In my 72 years, the last 50 or so working on government projects, I've seen what "short term gain" does for "long term progress". If we maintain that level of carelessness with our environment, that terrible virus that infects this planet will kill it.

I don't know specifics about "global warming", "climate change", but I am observant enough that I do know about "global pollution" and our part in it. I truly suspect that the NIMBYSWSIW will see the end of our world. "Soylent Green", anyone?

Rod

 

[BigInch]

Pick one.

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[JJPellin]

I am going to have to agree with Artisi's original concern on this one. As a point of full disclosure, I should note that I work for an oil refinery that processes a large volume of the Synthetic Crude that comes from tar sands.

I was not aware that these huge waste water basins were unlined. This is certain to result in lasting environmental damage.

A few unfortunately chosen words in an e-mail do not invalidate the science of global warming. Decades of data and research point to a few simple conclusions: The planet is warming at an unprecedented rate. And human activity is largely to blame.

Johnny Pellin

 

[zdas04]

Johnny,
It is easy to believe part of your first point, the planet seems to be warming. I don't know that the rate of warming is in any way unprecedented, but it could be. There is no data that supports the assertion that human activity is even partly to "blame". There are computer models. Period. The models were built by people to try to match spotty data from the past to allow prediction of the future. Computer models cannot prove anything. Ouija boards or tea leaves do better.

I live at about a mile above current mean sea level. This area has been under the sea at least 5 times over the history of the planet. Something pretty serious has happened over and over to accomplish that. It will happen again and again and again. Temperatures will rise and fall. Sea levels will rise and fall. The earth itself will rise and fall. Human activity is not even a dot on a pimple on a gnat's ass of the planet's course through time.

If the globe is warming, regardless of the cause the inhabitants of the globe will adapt. Some will die. Some will thrive. As George Carlin said "95% of all the species that ever lived on the earth are now extinct". Change is not new. Hysteria over the cause of the change seems to be new, but pretty much non-productive.

David

 

[BigInch]

Yes Great Descendents of Nero. We now suspect that it's just a totally insane coincidence that the volume of fossil fuel burned and the unprecedented rise in global temperatures track identically. Kick the tires, light the fires! All aboard the Express Train to Hell.

"The Hell Bound Train"

A Texas cowboy lay down on a barroom floor,
Having drunk so much he could drink no more;
So he fell asleep with a troubled brain
To dream that he rode on a hell-bound train.

The engine with murderous blood was damp
And was brilliantly lit with a brimstone lamp;
An imp, for fuel, was shoveling bones,
While the furnace rang with a thousand groans.

The boiler was filled with lager beer
And the devil himself was the engineer;
The passengers were a most motley crew-
Church member, atheist, Gentile, and Jew,

Rich men in broad cloth, beggars in rags,
Handsome young ladies, and withered old hags,
Yellow and black men, red, brown, and white,
All chained together-O God, what a sight!

While the train rushed on at an awful pace-
The sulphurous fumes scorched their hands and face;
Wider and wider the country grew,
As faster and faster the engine flew.
Louder and louder the thunder crashed
And brighter and brighter the lightning flashed;
Hotter and hotter the air became
Till the clothes were burned from each quivering frame.

And out of the distance there arose a yell,
"Ha, ha," said the devil, "we're nearing hell"
Then oh, how the passengers all shrieked with pain
And begged the devil to stop the train.
But he capered about and danced for glee,
And laughed and joked at their misery.
"My faithful friends, you have done the work
And the devil never can a payday shirk.

"You've bullied the weak, you've robbed the poor,
The starving brother you've turned from the door;
You've laid up gold where the canker rust,
And have given free vent to your beastly lust.
"You've justice scorned, and corruption sown,
And trampled the laws of nature down.
You have drunk, rioted, cheated, plundered, and lied,
And mocked at God in your hell-born pride.

"You have paid full fare, so I'll carry you through,
For it's only right you should have your due.
Why, the laborer always expects his hire,
So I'll land you safe in the lake of fire,

"Where your flesh will waste in the flames that roar,
And my imps torment you forevermore."
Then the cowboy awoke with an anguished cry,
His clothes wet with sweat and his hair standing high.

Then he prayed as he never had prayed till that hour
To be saved from his sin and the demon's power;
And his prayers and his vows were not in vain,
For he never rode the hell-bound train.


From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[stevenal]

That's the other kind of engineer. Wrong forum.

 

[BigInch]

You sure?

From "BigInch's Extremely simple theory of everything."

 

[JJPellin]

zdos04,

I respectfully disagree. The fact that a piece of land was under water 200 milliion years ago is not relevant to the current discussion. In the past 400,000 years, we have never seen a temperature rise this rapid. During that time, we have also never seen C02 levels this high. And both of those variables are accelerating, not just rising. The tonnage of C02 that we are dumping into the atmosphere is the source. Deniers have claimed it is solar activity. But, we are in a solar minimum now and the temperature still goes up. They have claimed it is volcanic activity. But the data says otherwise. It is not a computer model. It is hard data of C02 levels, temperatures, solar activity, air temperatures, water temperatures, etc. When you look closely at the "data" provided by the deniers, it is always cherry picked, out of context or just grossly misinterpreted. The true experts who have examined all of the data are in nearly universal agreement. Humans are the cause.

We still need to understand the function of the positive and negative feedback processes. This involves some computer models. This will help us understand how fast it will progress and how long we have to act. But, the models are not the proof. The hard data provides the proof.


Johnny Pellin