How to go green without failures and disasters? 17

[RedSnake]

I think it is sad that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and at least one hundred years of exponential technical development and we stil can’t utilize what we know.

I know it has much to do with politics, markets and peoples unwillingness to draw back on consumption and whether or not to believe in the scientists assessment of the climate change.
But I hope that we can keep that part of the discussion to a minimum and try to discuss the engineering and technical sides of things.

But since I am OP, I will start by not following my own advise. ;-)
By saying that, you do not need to be a scientist only a half dissent engineer, to know that if you put to many meta tablets in a toy steam engine and the pressure relief valve don’t work it will a eventually explode.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[JohnRBaker]

That's the key word, "...nobody will be able to afford to burn it."

There are other sources of energy, but oil and coal is a big part of other industries which needs these 'fuels', not for the trapped BTU's but rather the elements and molecules that they're made up of.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[RedSnake]

with one side trying to figure out how to limit the freedom of others

And is the the freedom of others to burn oil, coal and nature gas?
Or is it something else?

This idea we can just swap them out in a decade or two - it’s really weird that people believe it.

In the beginnings of 60's almost all houses in Sweden was heated by crude oil, today I do not even think that you can buy it.
Yesterday our electrical and heating production contained of 8,3% unspecified energy sources, which means that it can be anything from oil, natural gas, coal, wood, mostly consisting of unsortable waste.
We are a small country, if we can managed that it is for me weird that for example a land like US can not manage the same with all it resources.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Comcokid]

The idea of "Peak Oil" is well over a century old.

"Petroleum has been used for less than 50 years, and it is estimated that the supply will last about 25 or 30 years longer. If production is curtailed and waste stopped it may last till the end of the century. The most important effects of its disappearance will be in the lack of illuminants. Animal and vegetable oils will not begin to supply its place. This being the case, the reckless exploitation of oil fields and the consumption of oil for fuel should be checked."

About every 20 years another oil-doom prediction is made.

 

[RedSnake]

Is this really a question of waiting until it runs out ?
Are all your solutions based on the easy way out, just because you can?
I have nothing against freedom of choice.
But when your "freedom of choice" limits other peoples freedom of choice, which it does, then it is not okay any more.

Best regard A




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

The relatively continuous supply of fossil fuel over the years in the face of production decline curves has been made possible with advances in discovery and production technology, mostly associated with price increases, but eventually leading to oversupply and cheap oil until demand rises and kicks the price up again. So far the advances in technology have managed to keep the system running, however there are signs appearing again that indicate the cycle may collapse. Once again we are seeing its limitations and they appear to be increasingly more severe. The pace of discovery has slowed. The easy fruit has been picked and reached or has passed max producion. Declines appear eminent. New significant discoveries are fewer and fewer and increasing production costs in ever more severe environments look incapable of supporting our economy's ever rising demands. The current decline in production forecasts intersect rising demand forecasts in 10 years or so, assuming present known technology prevails. At present the system does not appear to be sustainable on many fronts. These factors have recently been discussed at length here,

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=475925

 

[cranky108]

"The relatively continuous supply of fossil fuel over the years in the face of production decline curves has been made possible with advances in discovery and production technology" One would wonder if it was possible to direct advances in the direction of something that works with existing machines, like the otto cycle engine. Not that electric cars are bad, but require a big reworking of many things. Where something like a liquid fuel that would work in existing cars. Maybe the issue is people want a different reality and not a change.
One thing I have noticed is that the new cars have a lot of things I don't like. Like computers, with non-since displays. A manual transmission, and the sound of the engine and road provides most of that.

Right now Natural gas can be made from renewable sources, but the push is to phase out natural gas, and not seek renewable gas. This does feel political, and an insult to our freedoms.

On another topic: I do have under floor heating in my house, which circulates water from a boiler, that burns propane. Being it is a 95+% model, it used plastic pipe for the stack.
I also have underfloor electric heating in one of the bathrooms, with wifi control. Now if I knew how to use the wifi it would be nice.
We wanted underfloor heating in the second bath, but they delivered the wrong size, and we skipped it as the project was taking longer than we wanted. That's a problem with underfloor electric, is it is size specific, and can't be cut.

 

[1503-44]

Rather than make natural gas, making hydrogen using renewable power sources seems to fit your suggestion.

 

[IRstuff]

Gasoline, oil, and natural gas all share one important property, >40 MJ/kg. A Tesla battery is more like 1 MJ/kg, rechargeable, to be sure, but lots of mass and bulk to deal with.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

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[cranky108]

How can we make oil go away, when we also use it for other things? Do they need grease for electric cars?, are plastics used for electric cars?

I think those wanting oil to go away, don't have the whole story.

Natural gas the same way. It will seep out of coal seams if not collected. Ammonia is produced with natural gas, and is a very large part of farming needs (if you like to eat).

My question about the future is what exactly are we wanting it to look like, and has anyone really looked at all the other interactions?

Example, at one time octaine was disposed of because it was not as good a fuel as lamp oil.

 

[RedSnake]

For me it's mostly about balancing CO[sub]2[/sub] so using oil for grease is something else, then burning it for heat, of course it will at sometime become CO[sub]2[/sub].
But exchanging natural gas for bio gas is ok.

My assumption is that the natural gas would not sip out of the ground in the same extent if we where not trying to extract oil or oil sand.

I would actually not wont a electrical car either mostly because a hybrid with a motor that could be driven on some or all types of bio fule would not restrict me.

I like stirlingmotors they have high efficiency, I am not shore how common they are but I think they can be put to good use in many places.

I found this site, I have not checked the facts and someone is obviously trying to sell something.
But if what is sade here is somewhat near the truth it might give some insight to what needs to be done in the energy production field.

Modern GASOLINE ENGINE GENERATORS average efficiency of about 18% to 20%. about 80% is ejected as heat from the exhaust,
DIESEL GENERATORS efficiency of about 40%
COAL POWER PLANTS: 37% (37 units are converted to useable electricity and 63 units are wasted.)
NATURAL GAS POWER PLANTS: 50% (50 units are converted to useable electricity and 50 units are wasted.)
NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS: 33% (33 units are converted to useable electricity and 67 units are wasted.)
HYDRO-ELECTRIC POWER PLANTS: 93% (93 units are converted to useable electricity and 7 units are wasted)
GAS TURBINES: approximately 50% efficient. (50 units are converted to useable electricity and 50 units are wasted.)
A typical FUEL CELL has an efficiency of about 50%, (50 units are converted to useable electricity and 50 units are wasted.)
The worlds most efficient rooftop SOLAR PANEL has an efficiency of about 22% (22 units are converted to useable electricity and 78 units are wasted.)

http://ienergycorp.us/Efficiency.html

We have heating plants in Sweden where we burn waste and get electricity but we also get hot water to heat houses and also cooling it is for the hospital.
It have a 99% efficiency, because we take care of the hot air too.

Best regards A





“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[IRstuff]

How can we make oil go away, when we also use it for other things? Do they need grease for electric cars?, are plastics used for electric cars?

Humans are absurdly stubborn, when faced with existentially challenging situations. When I first started working, the semiconductor industry was rapidly approaching the 1 um feature size limit for UV photolithography, and there was great trepidation about using e-beam or x-ray lithography to go to sub-micrometer feature sizes. Fast forward to today, we are STILL using UV lithography, albeit, it's a much, much, shorter wavelength, and people have to go through hoops to create features in the 5 nm regime, using exposure wavelengths 20x larger than that; in the mean time, all those companies that started up in anticipation of supporting e-beam direct-write-on-wafer and x-ray lithography ALL went bankrupt and fell by the wayside.

The moral of the story is to not be surprised, 40 yrs from now, to still see fossil fuels being used.


TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

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[verymadmac]

Even if a 40 MJ/kg battery is possible, would it be safe to use, since its value is in powering moving objects and current generation cells are proving difficult to manage safely (car are easy, aircraft are a bit more problematic) At least a fuel fire is limited by Oxygen availability, the current typical battery cell is, in many aspects, more like a poorly designed explosive (it is packaged with its oxidizer).

 

[CWB1]

But when your "freedom of choice" limits other peoples freedom of choice, which it does, then it is not okay any more.

That logic assumes the entire world is a single homogeneous system which it isnt. Urban areas (where most pushing that fallacy live) are naturally filthy with pollution simply due to the population density overwhelming the rest of the environment's natural filtration of our emissions. There's no way around that problem, hence the irony of city folks claiming to be concerned about the environment. Realistically, there have always been clean and filthy places to live and its up to the individual to choose their home, the world being as far from homogenous as the US is. Others' freedom of choice does not limit yours.

Unfortunately, the agenda that rhetoric pushes is based on historic lies that have become somewhat popular. Ask folks about how govt has protected the environment and many will mention legislation limiting automotive emissions - absurd to be polite. Its much like the misconceptions surrounding the previously mentioned radiant floors, many folks mistake them for efficient.

 

[SnTMan]

A very large part of the problem is simply to define "green". We're not there yet...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[cranky108]

If most of the energy in operating a car is in the manufacturer of the steel, then disposing of a car, to get a more efficient car seems a little pointless the way I see it.

The engine can be changed, or the carboration, or the fuel tank, so the type of fuel can be changed, within some limits.

Granted that something like CNG would not have the range I do now, but since I normally don't use the bottom of the tank because of impurities, if I had a cleaner fuel, I could use the whole tank.

Then again, I wonder if some of the things going on are just jobs programs. Like we need things for people to do so they can have jobs. Farming requires so few people, that farming does not produce the jobs like in the past. That is except some of the fruit picking, even some of that is gone. What comes to mind is the net they put around a nut tree, then shake the tree to release the ripe nuts.

So what solutions do we have for off road power? Electric tractors?

 

[CWB1]

Right now Natural gas can be made from renewable sources, but the push is to phase out natural gas, and not seek renewable gas.

Curious, where do you see a push to phase out NG? For a few decades the EPA has pushed its use for everything from a transportation fuel to power gen, going so far as to advocate for tax incentives and writing regulation to allow an excessive amount of hydrocarbon emission, despite methane being one of the most (if not worst) of the "greenhouse" gases and its primary constituent.

 

[cranky108]

There are locations that are trying to require electric heating for new buildings.
The reasoning is to reduce CO2.

Sort of why I believe the de-carbon thing is only political. When it goes too far and options are being cast aside, in sure appears to be a controlling effort, and not a problem solving effort.

 

[RedSnake]

That logic assumes the entire world is a single homogeneous system which it isnt.

So you really think that your CO[sub]2[/sub] emissions stays in American airspace ?

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[SnTMan]

Banning NG is apparently a thing in CA. Wonder where the electricity is going to come from?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[RedSnake]

Well about steel production.
We are building a fossil free steel factory.

The company H2 Green Steel is a new producer of green steel, based on a fossil-free manufacturing process that includes one of Europe's largest green hydrogen factories. They plan to build a fully integrated industrial park in Boden-Luleå with production starting in 2024. By 2030, H2 Green Steel expects to have an annual production capacity of 5 million tonnes of steel.

A link, quite long press conference, if someone is interested.

https://tv.streamfabriken.com/press-conference-feb-2021?seek=1182

Best Regards

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein