How to go green without failures and disasters? 17

[RedSnake]

I think it is sad that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and at least one hundred years of exponential technical development and we stil can’t utilize what we know.

I know it has much to do with politics, markets and peoples unwillingness to draw back on consumption and whether or not to believe in the scientists assessment of the climate change.
But I hope that we can keep that part of the discussion to a minimum and try to discuss the engineering and technical sides of things.

But since I am OP, I will start by not following my own advise. ;-)
By saying that, you do not need to be a scientist only a half dissent engineer, to know that if you put to many meta tablets in a toy steam engine and the pressure relief valve don’t work it will a eventually explode.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

I dont see natgas out yet. With CO2 capture it fits the green power scheme.

 

[electricpete]

Here's my attempt to put the Fukushima disaster in perspective:

It is a sad story but I think the perception is worse than the reality.
I'm not sure people realize that the natural disaster at Fukushima killed far more than the man made disaster.
The impact of the natural disaster on human life was at least 15,000 souls lost.
The impact of the manmade/nuclear disaster on human life is estimated at 2,129 in Fukushima.... the vast majority of which (~90%) are from trauma caused by evacuations and displacement in response to the nuclear disaster. There are a number of other estimates, the worldwide cancer estimate outside of Fukushima is 130 deaths. So I think you could say 2500 deaths and be in the ballpark.

There were and are detectable radioisotopes from the event far and wide. But it’s important to understand that even minute quantities of radioactive isotopes are extremely easy to detect and characterize through spectrometry based on the frequency of the gamma radiation emitted during decay (sometimes samples are put inside a shielded container and monitored for hours to attain ridiculously low threshhold of detection). So "detectable" sounds scary on a beach in the US or a fish near Hawaii, but it often isn’t the case (but it always makes a really good news story).

Another aspect of the manmade disaster to me is the economic consequences… around $1T cleanup by this reference. Actually I thought it would be higher.. they have bizarre expensive approaches like maintaining the ground frozen to prevent leakage. And it’s an ongoing requirement that I don’t think has any resolution in sight. Of course if you try to compare $1T cost to let’s say 2500 lives lost, they would be equal only if we assigned value of human life $400k. I’d never assign a value to a human life, but if I did it’d be a lot higher. All of which is a roundabout way of saying that the economic cost, although huge, is small in comparison to the human cost. (I drew inspiration from Josh's comments about weighing the cost of human lives vs the cost of shutdowns during the pandemic).

For nuclear power in general, there is also that pesky spent fuel problem. US had a great plan with Yucca mountain. I hate to say it but the Obama administration (who did a lot of great things otherwise, imo) really screwed that one up royally. I haven't followed the news on the latest plan for spent fuel disposal but no doubt we are decades behind where we were in 2011 just before the monumentally-stupid decision to cancel Yucca was made.

Other sources of energy have disasters that are not always as visible. There may be slow motion disasters unfolding from fossil fuels.

Hydro seems benign to me in comparison as long as you’re not building 3 Gorges. Wind and solar seem relatively low impact. I think I heard someone complain about electronic waste from production or disposal of solar panels but I don’t remember those details.


=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[IRstuff]

Environmental cost of solar panels should be comparable to that of semiconductor manufacturing: acids, solvents, organics, toxins, in both liquid and gaseous forms. We used to use phosphine for dopant ion implantation into chips, but now, I think they use the much safer gases based on arsenic ;-)

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[SnTMan]

Wind and solar seem relatively low impact.

Perhaps aside from the land area needed. Wind can share with some other uses, solar not so much.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[RedSnake]

Well we still measure cesium in wild boar meat, reindeer meat since 1986, when the nuclear accident occurred in Chernobyl, Ukraine.
Especially the the Sami who have pretty much all their income from reindeer husbandry and fishing have had a hard time after that, a lot of support feeding to keep cesium levels down.
Now they also have a very hard time finding winter pasture for the reindeer as it is cold and then warm in periods during the whole winter, there are no real winters here anymore.
The reindeer cannot dig down through the ice crusts and if it has rained and frozen closest to the ground, they will not be able to graze.

I think we have broken every weather record we had, this last years, warmest, coldest for every month and the most rain, since we started measuring in 1756.
It rained over 200 mm in one month here in October last year 55 mm in 2 days it was what was left of hurricane Sally after it left Alabama.

It rained so much that my septic tank in the summer house has come up from the ground :-(
And 3 large fir-trees fell down luckily not on the house.
Haven't fixed it yet, then came the snow.

Best Regards A

 

[cranky108]

The Fukushima plant I believe was built by the same US company that created PCB's for the electric industry, before it made loads of money getting rid of PCB's.

And still my wife does not understand why I will not buy a toaster from them.

Wind farms do kill large numbers of birds, and bats. That is documented. With the blade tip speeds of greater that 200 MPH, the birds can't see the blades in time to get out of the way. Also the flash factor on humans and animals is well documented. And the amount of energy to create the tower steel is huge. That said, I don't see a problem with small units.

Solar is great for heating hot water and your home, but for large scale electric it sure takes up a lot of space. And with a life of 15 to 20 years, what will happen in the end?

So how much of this strange weather has to do with the shifting of the magnetic poles?

 

[RedSnake]

Flash factor ??

I am not shore I heard of that what is it?
We wouldn't be allowed to put up wind generators in areas with bats or other animals that are protected or red-listed, there is a lot environmental studies done before something can be built or set up here.

Are there any district heating plants producing hot water for house heating in US ?

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[JohnRBaker]

Question, how many birds are killed when hit by cars or trucks on the highway? Or for that matter, from flying into large expanses of glass on the side of a building? My parent's house had two rather large 'picture' windows and birds were always being killed flying into them.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[SuperSalad]

Lots of things kill large numbers of birds and bats. Lots of things kill large numbers of lots of things. This is how life and death works in the natural world and especially when the natural and 'human-made world' interact.

Bird and bat deaths from wind turbines isn't even within the horizon when compared to a number of other causes of bird and bat deaths. It is something to be improved upon, not something to be used for disqualification.

Andrew H.

http://www.MotoTribology.com

 

[cranky108]

I never said bird deaths are a disqualification, I'm not a purest, so I accept some problems exist. In fact cats seem to be a bigger figure in bird deaths.

I also don't see any of these as the solution for all the carbon issues.

I just feel that everything in moderation is a better answer.

How many people want to supersize all there food orders? Where does that lead? So why not go for a bigger mix of energy sources?

I don't know of any district heating in the western US. I think we are just to short minded for that.

A good missed option.

Then again, we should be critical of everything in some way, because if we don't we can't see how to improve them.

 

[SuperSalad]

Sorry cranky108, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I do see that argument made a lot though. Anti's pointing out that it kills birds/bats and saying environmentalists should be totally against wind turbines for that reason alone.

House cats are far and above, nothing else is even remotely close, the number one bird (particularly songbirds) killer out there.

I agree with all of your other points.

Andrew H.

http://www.MotoTribology.com

 

[SnTMan]

I don't know of any district heating in the western US. I think we are just to short minded for that.

I kind of think we are also too spread out for it. Works better if each part is right on top of the other parts.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[RedSnake]

I kind of think we are also too spread out for it. Works better if each part is right on top of the other parts.

What's your definition of spread out?
And what do you mean whit each part is right on top of the other parts. .. ?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[cranky108]

If you look at the physical size of many US cities (not the population), it would be difficult for district heating for the whole city.
That said, the downtown area of many US cities would be good for district heating.
However, few people are likely to accept that idea. Just look at where people expect power plants to be placed (somewhere else).
One cities water district may be in the hundreds of square miles in size, so I would assume a full heating district would be the same size.

District heating does exist on several universities, as well as district cooling in the summer. But I assume that is a cost saving effort by the university board.

No problem putting words in my mouth. It sure beats having my foot in my mouth.
As far as detractors for any technology, it is better to hear what they have to say, as there is some truth in it.
That said, since most people are able to make up their minds with having no facts at all. It is easy to see why people would want to ban dihydro-oxide. Let alone wind, solar, hydroelectric, or anything else.

 

[SnTMan]

RedSnake, I am talking about the typical layouts of "civilization" in the US, particularly flyover country. Lots of single family homes or low-ish density multifamily. Typical city growth patterns don't really tend to make it practical.


The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[1503-44]

System name City State Startup year Number of customers Capacity, MWt Annual energy generated, GWh System remperature, °F System temperature, °C
Warm Springs Water District Boise ID 1892 275 3.6 8.8 175 79
Oregon Institute of Technology Klamath Falls OR 1964 1 6.2 13.7 192 89
Midland Midland SD 1969 12 0.09 0.2 152 67
College of Southern Idaho Twin Falls ID 1980 1 6.34 14 100 38
Philip Philip SD 1980 7 2.5 5.2 151 66
Pagosa Springs Pagosa Springs CO 1982 22 5.1 4.8 146 63
Idaho Capital Mall Boise ID 1982 1 3.3 18.7 150 66
Elko Elko NV 1982 18 3.8 6.5 176 80
Boise City Boise ID 1983 58 31.2 19.4 170 77
Warren Estates Reno NV 1983 60 1.1 2.3 204 96
San Bernardino San Bernardino CA 1984 77 12.8 22 128 53
City of Klamath Falls Klamath Falls OR 1984 20 4.7 10.3 210 99
Manzanita Estates Reno NV 1986 102 3.6 21.2 204 95
Elko County School District Elko NV 1986 4 4.3 4.6 190 88
Gila Hot Springs Glenwood NM 1987 15 0.3 0.9 140 60
Fort Boise Veteran's Hospital Boise Boise ID 1988 1 1.8 3.5 161 72
Kanaka Rapids Ranch Buhl ID 1989 42 1.1 2.4 98 37
In Search Of Truth Community Canby CA 2003 1 0.5 1.2 185 85
Bluffdale Bluffdale UT 2003 1 1.98 4.3 175 79
Lakeview Lakeview OR 2005 1 2.44 3.8 206 97

 

[RedSnake]

My apartment is heated with district heating.
Of course this town isn't big compared to American citys and we don't have it all over either.
In total 440 km tubing and the longest distans between the plant and costumer is maybe 50 km.
But the plant itself isn't very big.

Dåva CHP plant is one of the world's most energy efficient and environmentally friendly plants with waste as the main fuel.
Here, district heating and electricity are produced from sorted waste and residues from the forest industry.
In addition, the heat is recovered from the flue gases that are created.

The heat produced here can heat about 18,000 normal villas for an entire year.
The gross production of electricity is sufficient to supply about 6,500 villas with household electricity.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[SnTMan]

1503-44, I didn't say never

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[CWB1]

So you really think that your CO2 emissions stays in American airspace ?

Whether they do or not is irrelevant. In a free society, if your area is filthy then you are free to move to a cleaner one. As evidenced by history many times over, the issue is that you're advocating against a free society by supporting tyranny of the masses, which inevitably leads to dictatorial rule.

I believe most every military installation and larger university campus stateside is heated by a co-gen plant. I also am suspicious of any study asserting a large number of bird deaths due to wind turbine bc my brother actually studied it for a large provider and found the exact opposite, but who knows. Turbines do have an amazing effect on local wind, temperature, and thereby weather patterns tho, and also need a ton of maintenance and oil. Solar rejects a ton of heat. Both the later two have fairly short lifespans compared to hydro, which can run decades with little/no maintenance. A friend actually rehabilitates old, small hydro sites, rebuilding century-old turbines and connecting to modern generators/controls. My understanding is that more often than not municipalities are eager to demolish old sites and won't even consider permitting rehabilitation. I would absolutely love to buy/build a home on a river with a small turbine. In any case, nothing is perfect simply bc humans aren't, nor are we the same or of unified beliefs - that's humanity.

 

[RedSnake]

Whether they do or not is irrelevant. In a free society, if your area is filthy then you are free to move to a cleaner one.

Okay let me see if I understod you right.
If I were to start dumping my household waste on your property or in your apartment, which ever is the case.
That would be totally okay for you?
I am mean I am just exercising my freedom of choice.
I mean you can always take advantage of your freedom and move, if it does not suit you.
Since it doesn't seems that your freedom includes the personal choice to stay where you are, this would not be a problem for you.
And since you have the financial mens for moving and can get another job elsewhere, this is not a problem for you.
You probably will get well paid for the poverty as well, there are certainly many who are willing to pay a good price for a dump.
And wen you have moved I can keep exercising my freedom and dumping my household waste on your former property.

the issue is that you're advocating against a free society by supporting tyranny of the masses

You do not know the first thing about what I am advocating.
So do not put words in my mouth and do not try to read things between the lines that are not there.

Best Regard A