How to go green without failures and disasters? 17

[RedSnake]

I think it is sad that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and at least one hundred years of exponential technical development and we stil can’t utilize what we know.

I know it has much to do with politics, markets and peoples unwillingness to draw back on consumption and whether or not to believe in the scientists assessment of the climate change.
But I hope that we can keep that part of the discussion to a minimum and try to discuss the engineering and technical sides of things.

But since I am OP, I will start by not following my own advise. ;-)
By saying that, you do not need to be a scientist only a half dissent engineer, to know that if you put to many meta tablets in a toy steam engine and the pressure relief valve don’t work it will a eventually explode.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

RedSnake,
Well said.
Not to worry.
He's getting his from China.
He just does not know it.

 

[Fischstabchen]

I believe there is climate change occurring that is the result of man but I am much less sure how much of a problem that is. People want to point to every rare weather event as evidence of something but that is so damn flimsy. Who's life is thrown into a whirl during an El Nino sunspot weather pattern? Is my or most people's lives going to be turned upside down if the planet warms a degree? It is such a low priority issue that that is why you never hear about solutions to reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth even though those would be the most cost effective solutions. You have a large desert forming in Australia and slowly rising oceans but for most people it isn't something that is impactful. I though welcome renewables for the reasons that it leads to less air pollution and is to the point that for most people it is the most or near the most cost efficient form of power available. It is ridiculous that the cheapness of renewables is never pushed when that would be the best argument for it.

 

[1503-44]

Reportedly a good amount of illegal immigration from Central America to the US is actually being driven by climate change, second only to unequal wealth distribution of land ownership.

CHEAP Renewables? My impression is that, on a $ kW basis, wind power is about equal to to mechanical, solar is still twice that, but is a little more paletable if you can net-payback into the grid, since you don't need batteries for storage. The biggest advantage to utility scale construction I see from renewable sources is ease of permitting and quicker construction times.


I get the impression you are not Australian. So, desertification of Australia is the only climate change scenario that you are aware of? Wikipedia "desertification" says about 2 Billion people are affected. See the map of where. National Geographic says it is occurring in 100 countries.

 

[RedSnake]

People want to point to every rare weather event as evidence of something but that is so damn flimsy.
Who's life is thrown into a whirl during an El Nino sunspot weather pattern?
Is my or most people's lives going to be turned upside down if the planet warms a degree?

There has always been natural disasters.
In areas that always have hade hurricanes, forest fires, snow storms, landslides, drought as a recurrent phenomena they are use to handle it.
Now natural disasters gets stronger and more persistent than before and in the future they will occur more often if nothing is done.
But they also start occurring and influens the weather in other places to, and in the wrong time of the year.
Who gets affected is probably more up to chance.
For people who lives in areas with good support, when things happen, it might be a minor problem loosing there homes and livelihood, as whit Katarina and New Orleans or now in Texas.

War and conflict has two mayor causes religion and lack of resources.
Religion is probably often used as an excuse when it really is about taking over resources such as clean water, arable land, hunting and fishing rights etc.
These things will disappear in some areas but increase in others.
But where the resources will grow the people who live there may not be so willing to let the ones who have been left without get in.

Best Regards A




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[cranky108]

I think the point that human mismanagement of resources, like forests, is being lumped in with global warming. And the solutions for global warming, don't fix the mismanagement problems.

Yes, mismanagement of forests is big problem. And fire size and results can reduced with proper management. And cutting carbon emissions will not replace proper management.

The fires in California could have been reduced in size and results, if proper forest management had been completed through the years. The same with slash and burn land use in central America.
And it is concerning that we have such other mismanagement also going on in the west with wild horses over consuming so much of the few grasses that exist there.

The issue is much more complex than what the politics project. And carbon credits or more taxes won't fix the problem.

 

[RedSnake]

I think we need to work on both does things, both the mismanagement of resources and the emissions of CO[sub]2[/sub] and other things.
It will not be enough to just solve one and not the other.
But also because it is easier to do a little in many areas which is better than doing nothing at all.
Waiting for someone else to solve the whole problem and thinking that is not possible and that nothing can be changed.

The same with slash and burn land use in central America.
And it is concerning that we have such other mismanagement also going on in the west with wild horses over consuming so much of the few grasses that exist there.

I am not shore I follow you here, you need to explain.

Best Regards A




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Those were capital costs. Including run costs, wind and solar can get cheaper than conventional meathods when natgas prices increased like they did in TX last weeks.

 

[cranky108]

It is well known that in the US, most farmers manage the land, and work at developing the soil so they can grow larger crops. But in central America, a farmer will cut down the trees, and burn the native plants to clear the land for farming. In several years the land will not support the crops. Instead of correcting the land the farmer will walk off and start over with a new place.
The old farm will usually waste away with no plants to cover the bare ground, and become deeply rutted from the rain. This is called slash and burn farming.

In the western US it is very dry,and few plants grow. But over the years as horses had escaped, there numbers grew, and now the land can not support the number of horses, and many starve. But because the ASPCA will not allow the government to reduce the number of horses except through sales to people, and there is not very much demand, the number of horses keeps growing.
The shame is the effects on the land and the few plants there.
Yes I call this mismanagement.

So if solar is cheaper, why can't we remove the federal tax breaks? Or why can't we build so we can have power during power shortages? Solar is only cheaper because of the tax breaks, and China. And solar despite being cheaper only works when the sun is out.

 

[1503-44]

Solar is not cheaper only because of tax breaks. It is very close to equalling conventional power cost, but still a few cents per kWh higher in too many regions. In some regions with high cost of conventional power it is actually cheaper. In other cases, where "net payback" is allowed, solar can be cheaper, because you can do away with batteries and use the grid's power at night. If you had to buy a lot of batteries to do that, it can push your solar costs higher than grid juice. In my case, a solar system will roughly deliver kWh at the same price as my grid meter, without batteries and having net payback, but only because I would not have to pay sales tax on any solar power that I generated and used myself. I have to pay sales tax on the juice coming through the grid meter.

Do not forget that tax breaks making solar and other renewable sources cheaper do help foster more investment and use on an ever increasing scale. It reduces our dependence on fossil fuel. That is super important to many people and countries for a number of reasons. #1 being that you don't have to spend your local currency, or expensive foreign reserves changing it into US dollars and keep buying expensive oil to import into your own country every month. #2 you don't have to pump out tons of CO2 and NOX. #3 you can get as far away from anybody doing that as you possibly can and live in a far more healthy local environment. #4 you can be more self reliant and independent. #5 you can control your own power bill. Nobody tells you they will raise your rates. # Need more reasons, or are those enough?

Solar + batteries! I'm not electrical, so in my mind I think it is a lot like the gas tank in my car. I can drive it where there are no gas stations.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Round here there would be no problem with dealing with an over supply of horses. They would be eaten pretty quick..

On a side note a new law has come in this side of the pond which requires items to be fixable for at least 10 years including parts support and not requiring special tooling to get into things to fix them.

 

[RedSnake]

Round here there would be no problem with dealing with an over supply of horses. They would be eaten pretty quick..

I guess you mean by humans and not by wolfs and lynx's

On a side note a new law has come in this side of the pond which requires items to be fixable for at least 10 years including parts support and not requiring special tooling to get into things to fix them.

Well that has been the case for industrial products in Europe for as long as I can remember.

You hade batteries to your solarcells if I remember correctly, are they only for short term storages like from day to night?
It seems there is some different philosophies here.
Either without batteries selling/buying from the grid, with batteri short term storage, trying to save until winter seams not be recommended for single households.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Yes short term. We have long used solar/w batteries to provide power to controls and instrument telemetry at pipeline valve stations in extremely remote locations. Generally 3 days storage capacity is sufficient, unless you are above the Arctic Circle. That's a problem that I'm sure you can appreciate. Northern Lights just don't get bright enough for that.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I use mine to cover consumption during the night from March through to Nov. But as soon as the heat pump is running they won't cover it.

Most of winter it goes into a sleep mode where it gets itself to about 15% and then sits at that until it gets a few days of above a certain amount of production.

To be honest most of the savings using it are the avoidance of grid charges, energy tax and sales tax.

I put 1250 kWh through it last year with 2050 directly from the PV and 3340 kWh from the grid giving @6600 total consumption.

We produced 9300 kWh total from the solar.

I have another inverter going in on the barn when I eventually build it. Which will allow me to cover the whole of the winter usage with summer feed in credit.

There is a load of UK spec and documented panels trapped in Europe after Jan the 1st and its too expensive to ship them to the UK now. The Polish seem to have decided its ok to sell them to a British expat without the EU relevant documentation so i can get 40 panels at less than 1/3rd of the normal price. Only problem is crossing 6 borders with all the covid restrictions to get my hands on them and back to where I want them. Its 800kg worth so I could do it in a transit van.

 

[FacEngrPE]

In "remote locations" it is easy to pay for solar - just by eliminating the cost of the utility drop. So the return on investment can completely ignore the cost of energy. Our local highway department uses a significant amount of solar on traffic control signs.

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/conventional/unsignalized/tech_sum/fhwasa09006/

The sign cost listed in the link ($1,860) is often less than the cost of hooking up a typical service drop.

Fred

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They are doing the same here. They have a dual solar and vertical wind generator thing on them with a battery pack.

UK pioneered being able to see the roads. years ago with cats eyes.

It one of the few things I actually miss from the UK.

 

[1503-44]

Oh! My Indian, Syrian and Iranian restaurants.

 

[RedSnake]

Only problem is crossing 6 borders with all the covid restrictions to get my hands on them and back to where I want them.
Its 800kg worth so I could do it in a transit van.

??
But Alistair there are something called aeroplans ;-) then in teori, you just have to leave one country and land in another.
I guess UK is closed now?
Or how is it?
You can get in, but not out ?

That's a problem that I'm sure you can appreciate. Northern Lights just don't get bright enough for that.

Depends ;-) in summer it's light 24 hours a day.
So what we lack in brightness we make up in time, winter is a whole other business though. :-(

Oh! My Indian, Syrian and Iranian restaurants.

Right now I miss everything that isn't home cooked.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I live in the Baltics and have been for over 10 years. I only go to UK for visits and work for 45 mins turning round. Anyway just now its a banned country so no direct transport links.

Bah airplanes, PIA. Paying a couple of locals a couple of bottles of Belarus vodka each and hiring a transit van to drive sounds more of a plan to me.

I was getting 32W off the moon last night!!!

What all the pizza shops in sweden are now shut? I reckon you have more per head than Italy.

 

[RedSnake]

What all the pizza shops in sweden are now shut? I reckon you have more per head than Italy.

I think you are right we probably have.
I have one less then 50 meters from where I live.
Nowadays even with Corona it might not be more then a pizza, ones a month, I do a better pizza myself ;-)

You can go out here, but yesterday it was one person per table, even if it is a family.

Belarus vodka each and hiring a transit van ... hmm
I wonder if that was what happened when some one stole some Shetlandsponnys here a couple of years ago, two horses in two different places the same week.
The rumor was that some one stole them for food.

Here most energi provider companies offers packages for solarcells with installation, you can even rent them if you want to.

Best Regards A







“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

All these packages you pay through the nose for. My next installation costs half the price that the first one does without the energy company involved.

They get the coin out of you somehow.

O well hopefully they will get the finger out with vaccinations. All the locals round here are rebelling saying they don't want it. And As for the oxford vaccine its a swear word.