Hurricanes, Sea water, Corrosion and EV's 13

[enginesrus]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/

It appears Li Ion battery's don't do so good with sea water, corrosion, and hurricane's. Many other threads on the net explain the tons of water
that the fire people need to attempt to extinguish the fires. I would like to see the pollution figures of an EV fire.
And on topic the pollution figures of all operations required to manufacture those battery's.

 

[TugboatEng]

stcbus, it's a bit of a reach to say that the sun is "literally free" after investment. The panels themselves have a finite life expectancy so you must always be preparing to replace them, same as any othe power plant. They also require non-trivial amounts of clean water to keep them clean. They are much higher maintenance than most think. It's a doubly large problem if you consider that the best places for solar have the least clean water so they'll be using very energy intense desalinated water for cleaning.

The solution to this problem isn't so cut and dry so if everybody would stop making such extreme statements, maybe we would stop seeing the extreme rebuttals.

 

[Factoter]

ICE infrastructure is well established, and what would be the equivalent MW compared to powergrids?—-and how would this question even be framed?—-in terms of potential, and which potential exactly? Generally speaking the wastage with EV systems is high, and really, only half of it might race from stoplight to stoplight, or less. Heating, cooling, creature comforts, it all sucks juice. But what’s the point? Gasoline usages, when compared to EV,s, are the epitome of indulgence where do you even begin to list the extravagance? But all that said, some person keeps their TV on all day because they think their dog is lonely, and half the kids I meet think it’s cool to remove their catalytic converters. Embarrassment of riches.

 

[Factoter]

Well, well, BTU comparisons by Uncle Sam;

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/

Some graphics here worth printing up and pondering . . .

 

[TugboatEng]

That's a good point, it's known exactly how much energy we need to replace our ICE engines. An important point is that a modern ICE engine, efficiency wise, is roughly equal to a modern conventional FF power plant. The ICE may actually be cleaner because all modern ICE engines have after treatment and few conventional power plants do. It's SERIOUSLY stupid to force electrification BEFORE the infrastructure is fully developed.

 

[BrianPetersen]

"Generally, the wastage with EV systems is high"

??

Mine has an energy-usage display that shows how much is used for propulsion, HVAC, and battery conditioning. Usually the propulsion is dominant (and by "usually" - it may be 100% HVAC before I pull out of the driveway, then 70% propulsion by the time I get to the end of my street 300 metres away, and 90+% by the end of the journey).

ICE vehicles don't do that because interior heating comes from what the engine is throwing away...

Lifetime consumption is now at 13.2 kWh/100 km. I expect that to get worse over winter. Comparable petrol vehicle would probably use 6 - 8 litres per 100 km.

And to Tug's point, personal-use vehicles and urban transport should be prioritized for electrification because engines in those spend a lot of time in poor-efficiency operating conditions. Long distance transport trucks are in a better situation in terms of powertrain efficiency.

 

[Factoter]

—Power grid delivery inefficiency and various drawbacks as mentioned above
—vehicle’s converting losses of AC to DC
—DC conversion to chemical battery storage losses
—chemical storage losses
—chemical conversion to DC losses
—DC to AC conversion losses for traction motors
—plus, ECM, BCM, and thermal control circuits as noted for heating cooling

 

[Factoter]

As an aside, it may be worth considering that EV’s are not principally about vehicle electrification, but rather a test bed of driverless ADAS systems and all the accompanying tech and headaches. I say this because the front end trunk of a Tesla, rather than a big EMF noisy engine is the location of the driver assist components. This could be why a these cars don’t come with a lidar reflecting front license plate, rather than aesthetic, or aerodynamics concerns.

 

[SwinnyGG]

I find it hilarious that we're now 'complaining' about the total system efficiency of electric drivetrain, in defense of an existing system which is, at absolute best, running around in the 30% range as far as conversion to kinetic energy. And that's before we factor in fuel manufacture and delivery (which, if you want to talk grid efficiency, you're opening that door).

Y'all really will grind whatever grist this intellectually dishonest mill requires to shit on electric vehicles.

The point isn't that they're perfect. It's that they are a step in a positive direction as far as converting the chemical energy we take out of the ground into the form of energy we need.

 

[TugboatEng]

I agree that urban and delivery vehicles would would actually benefit from electrification while most other situations would not.

One of my gripes is that this electrification is powered by fossil fuels. Lots of raw materials are required to build an entirely new infrastructure. We should start at the beginning and electrify the mining trucks that collect the raw materials. Once that is achieved then we can move on to electrifying everything else.

 

[BrianPetersen]

—Power grid delivery inefficiency and various drawbacks as mentioned above this is ~90% but then as someone else mentioned, if you want to open that can'o'worms, then you had also better open the can'o'worms about how much energy present in crude oil makes it to the nozzle at your local petrol station including the energy to extract and pump out the petroleum, pump that (or truck/train) to a refinery, refine it, pump that to a distribution center then truck it to your local petrol station.
—vehicle’s converting losses of AC to DC - this is a bridge rectifier with a bunch of diodes in it, there's maybe a volt or so lost, so 99%
—DC conversion to chemical battery storage losses - for modern lithium batteries this is quite small. Lithium-ion batteries charge at very close to 100% efficiency. Round-trip efficiency of lithium ion batteries is reported at 95%.
—chemical storage losses - Lithium batteries have a very low self-discharge rate. I'm on a fly-away business trip right now and my Bolt is sitting in airport parking back home. If I can't get home from the airport I'll be sure to report this. In any event, this is included in the round-trip lithium ion efficiency of 95%.
—chemical conversion to DC losses - included in the round-trip lithium ion efficiency of ~95%.
—DC to AC conversion losses for traction motors - The efficiency of the motor drive (essentially a fancy VFD) and motor of typical EVs is reported to be in the 93% range.
—plus, ECM, BCM, and thermal control circuits as noted for heating cooling - Sure. The power demand to operate the radio, lights, etc is also present in any other car these days. HVAC loading was discussed above.

And you forgot something that no conventional combustion-engine vehicle can do: Regenerative braking. Take foot off accelerator at 50+ km/h (gives deceleration comparable to a petrol vehicle or maybe a smidge more) and mine reports putting 15-ish kW back into the battery. Apply normal braking and that goes to 30 - 40 - 50 kW. Go down a long hill, and it shows up in the GOM (guess-o-meter - estimated range). Even longer hill, it shows up in state-of-charge. YES you can't go downhill all the time ... but petrol-engine vehicles throw that excess downhill energy away.

 

[TugboatEng]

For sure,. regenerative braking is a huge benefit. The time proven hybrid system is the path we should be following at this point in time, not full electric mandates. The hybrid system, in addition to regenerative braking allows the engine to operate at peak efficiency. Toyota is claiming 42% out of their engine which is about the same as a conventional supercritical power plant.

 

[BrianPetersen]

And ... There's no transmission. In my case, the final drive consists of a double-reduction set of helical gears and an open diff. No oil pump, no clutches, no hydraulic circuit. YES there are non-zero losses through helical reduction gears ... which are present in a conventional transmission anyhow PLUS the losses for operating all that other stuff.

The Bolt has 3 coolant loops. Out of interest, I drove for about 25 km then popped the hood to see what temperature these were at (indicative of battery power being converted into heat). The battery one was indistinguishable from ambient temperature (~ 10 C at the time). The powertrain one was maybe a few degrees above ambient. The HVAC one was lukewarm, because of the gentle demand for interior heat during the trip.

This isn't surprising. Battery conditioning only operates to keep battery temp within rather wide bounds. In normal temperate conditions, it doesn't do anything. (I don't even think it operates the pump unless it has to.) With rather low losses in the battery and a big thermal mass, the discharging losses to drive that 25 km would be expected to produce insignificant temperature change in the battery. The powertrain coolant loop mostly serves to keep the high-power IGBTs in the inverter from melting down - these are very small but high-intensity heat sources - and to keep the motor from cooking if someone drives at high power output for a long time. In normal puttering around ... not much heat is produced. The HVAC coolant loop temp depends on interior heating demand.

 

[cranky108]

I have heard a lot of unicorns here, but in general very little about life of the batteries. And in the case of discharging the battery into the grid, what exact rate do you expect back for this reduction in your battery life (in time, for that discharge), and convivence to you. Nothing like a sick baby at 3AM to disrupt you 7am charging schedule.

On the other side, most solar panels are washed by rain water, but do require a periotic cleaning for bird stuff.

Yes my work has a charging station, which is next to the gas fired powerplant. We somewhere also have a CNG filling station for some of the vehicles. But most of the larger vehicles are diesel.

So would it make since to just put solar panels on the electric car? But wait, it would then only be available in black (what would Henry Ford say to that).

 

[TugboatEng]

In 2015 the Prius had a solar roof. It kept the car a bit cooler when parked. There is about max 150-300 watts of power available on a car rooftop.

 

[BrianPetersen]

https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/how-long-should-an-electric-cars-battery-last

Anecdote

https://www.torquenews.com/8861/chevy-bolt-ev-battery-health-after-100000-miles

- but read the "Final thoughts" paragraphs.

And another

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/

I am filing this under "things to not worry about" while simultaneously doing common-sense things like not running it completely down to empty and not charging to 100% by default (I usually set mine between 80% and 90% depending on what I've got planned for the next day).

 

[Factoter]

Thermal power plant efficiency is? For the sake of argument, 30%
USA FFPP, according to above link, 83.8% power generation (inc. biomass)
EPA fuel economy rating Bolt, 119mpg-e (equivalent) (Mr Peterson, you are achieving 150!)
?Is it fair to multiply MPG-e by 30%, or 35% best case?
List of 2019 EPA fuel economy ratings, EV versus hybrids:
Electric vehiclesoverall mpg-e)
Clarity EV, 114mpg-e (34.5mpg)
Smart EV, 108mpg-e (32.7mpg)
Bolt EV, 119mpg-e (36mpg)
i3 EV, 113mpg-e (34.2mpg)
Tesla S long range, 111mpg-e (33.6mpg)
Tesla X long range, 96mpg-e (29mpg)
Hybrid Vehicles (overall mpg)
Prius eco hybrid, 56mpg
Ioniq Blue hybrid, 58mpg
Pacifica hybrid, 48mpg (v6 eng)
Niro FE hybrid, 50mpg
Insight, 52mpg

 

[FacEngrPE]

This should be an edge case, but it is indicative of the potential for battery availability and price to distort the used car market.
Girl's Electric Car Needs New Battery but It's More Expensive Than Vehicle Itself - Then She Gets Even Worse News
In this case a used car dealer sold a 2014 Ford Focus Electric, and later attempted a warranty repair. It is not clear if Ford did not have any of the batteries for an out of production model, or if the lack of qualified technicians caused the problem.
My personal theory is that this battery may have had one bad cell, which would have required battery pack disassembly for repair, possible, but the used parts market has not developed for depot repair of traction batteries.
Hopefully a market for repairing these batteries will develop in the future, parallel to a used vehicle market.

 

[Factoter]

Dealer replacement of integrated battery modules on the Chevy Volt was $65k, c.2018 which was about twice the subsidized vehicle cost. Now it’s 5k to 10k, which is equivalent to drivetrain RR costs for comparable vehicles. Around that same time, rebuilt (fabri-cobbled) Prius batteries for the Gen3 were available for $1800, versus oem $9000. Switching out packs and modules is a grease monkey job, but the high DC led to a certain reluctance factor (price gouging?) although the typical mechanic doesn’t care one wit. About this time ASE introduced an L3 certification for advanced diagnosis of EV, hybrids. So, Auto industry is responding to the developments as one might expect. . . fits and starts.

 

[BrianPetersen]

"mpg-e" is a silly comparison. Just stick to kWh/100km like the rest of the world ... various regions have different mixes of sources for grid power, and thus there is no "-e".

A good modern combined-cycle natural gas fired generating station has thermal efficiency, incoming natural gas to electricity leaving the plant boundary, in the 50% - 60% range.

https://www.ipieca.org/resources/en...-heat-generation/combined-cycle-gas-turbines/

Ontario (where I live) does not use coal for electricity generation. It was all phased out several years ago. Thus, in MY area, the (relative in)efficiency of coal-fired thermal power plants is irrelevant.

This page covers the sources of grid power where I live:

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-a...cial-territorial-energy-profiles-ontario.html

In there, is the overall CO2 emissions intensity (2020 is the most recent data but the situation hasn't appreciably changed since then) - 25 grams CO2 per kWh. National average is 110 g CO2/kWh.

And yes, as of yesterday, the lifetime consumption in my Bolt was indicated at 13.2 kWh / 100 km. It's going to get worse come winter ... I know that. Don't care what EPA (or Transport Canada) say at this point. I think GM (and EPA and Transport Canada) "sandbagged" the claimed numbers to forestall at least some of the inevitable "My car doesn't go as far as they said it would" complaints.

Crunch the numbers ... 0.33 kg CO2 per 100 km based on my current usage and available data as indicated above. No comparable combustion-engine vehicle will even come close. And take note, this is based on MY situation in MY car with grid energy sources in MY area.

 

[dik]

Thanks, Brian...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik