Insurance Company rejects CBO and Structural Engineering Findings 3

[BVWayne]

I am a Florida CBO who recently had a housefire that heated the interior of the building to over 900 degrees for approx. 45 minutes. The fire did not penetrate the drywall membrane of the trusses, but did dry-out the core of the drywall (calvinization). There was bat insulation which held residual heat for hours beyond the period of time the fire department extinguished the fire. The trusses have shown signs of charring and discoloration of the gusset plates of the trusses. As a professional, I hired a structural engineer to access the damage and he concluded that the fire compromised the trusses and since more than 30% of the trusses require replacement, this is now a Level - 3 Alteration according Florida Building Code Existing. Insurance company states that the trusses just don't look that bad and they have repaired worse. I have attached a Fire Model for those of you interested in heat damage to trusses. Your comments are welcome and appreciated. Particular comments to why trusses don't have to look so charred to be compromised would be especially helpful.

I believe this is an issue because I have Code Insurance on my policy and if they agree to the truss replacement, they will then have to bring the entire structure up to current code.



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

I'll attach photos with the reports when I get them from the forensic guy. I'm confused, what am I supposed to comment on at FAQ592...? I'm travelling and didn't get a chance to read it. Is this where you usually comment at?

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[hokie66]

Wayne,
That's just a devious way of sending a message to Ron without anybody else seeing it, as he is the author of the FAQ and fields suggestions about it.

 

[BVWayne]

Hokie.. thanks.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[scottiesei]

I often prepare reports and plans for several different insurance companies on fire losses in Central Florida. I find that some adjusters often under estimate the damage present at a loss. Fact of the matter is, they retain me to make that decision. I very rarely get concerns with my reports and recommendations (maybe once or twice out of 100) and I feel that I am pretty conservative. When it comes to trusses, I can often tell from the ground which ones I want to replace. Usually I end up in the attic checking 2 or 3 in the transitional areas. When you are replacing a group of trusses, it is more cost effective (and safe) to replace a bit past the damaged area rather than to perform any other types of tests. Wait until you see the report from the engineer, you might be pleasantly surprised.
On the other hand, there are a couple of "Forensic Engineers" in this line of work that tend to be pretty bold with what they save. Before hiring a PA, suggest to the insurance company that you retain a third party engineer. If you don't have an issue with contents, the PA would only do structure anyway and you would lose a lot of your code upgrade dollars to their commission. The insurance co. might even pick up the tab on a 3rd party.
On a related note and if I could tap the knowledge and code gurus here...regarding code upgrade, from time to time I get questioned by the contractors when I add steel to unreinforced masonry walls on structures that are substantially damaged (and old!). My feeling and understanding is that if the structure is pre 80's or 70's (pre-SBC?) and is substantially damaged, it would be difficult (impossible?) to prove that the structure met the code requirements at that time. Therefore upgrade is required, and continuous load path to the foundation must be provided (i.e: steel). Everyone seems real quick to jump to upgrade wood framed homes and add straps, but a lot of people seem to get nervous when I ask them to drill some dowels in to the walls. Is it not the same thing?!?
I'll watch this thread and help if I can.
Scott

http://www.dbssinc.com

 

[flgulfcoasteng]

scottiesei, during many renovations I have detailed added reinforcement to CMU walls. We generally knock out cmu sides, drill and epoxy grout rebar at T&B, plywood form side of CMU, and grout solid. Have never had any negative feedback from the contractors. Obviously easier for monolithic foundations than stemwalls though.

 

[Ron]

Hey Wayne...what's up? They should have issued their report by now! Go kick some a$$!

Ron

 

[BVWayne]

Wow, I've been gone for a week and am leaving for Green Build this following week, and you're right Ron, where is my report? Totally dig all the additional comments - I wish I had more time to reply to other postings. Maybe when I'm back in my own home... Trust me, when this report is given to me (insurance probably already has it) it will be posted for all to see. As for a third engineer, I'm expecting that already - and as for a PA - I agree, they will get their commission in the end. What I don't like is being disregarded and I don't like professional reports from extremely qualified engineers, architects and environmental specialists and a County Building Official's findings IGNORED by an insurance company. Maybe I should ignore their findings when they provide them... this is all a game... and I thought they only did this to elderly widows - looks like even Engineers are expected to accept less than what their policies read. Report to follow -- Have a great weekend guys... and more comments are ALWAYS welcome.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

A point that I'll reiterate, that is often lost in the technical assessment of fire damage, is the diminution of value of the structure if blackened structural members are left in place. They must be cleaned to the point that the fire issue is not blatantly obvious or when you sell the property, some uninformed home inspector is going raise big flags and the fight is on. Be sure you save the final agreed assessment report (not necessarily all the "sausage parts" between).

While the structural replacement might be more obvious and calculable, the replacement for inability to adequately clean the structural members is less so, but nonetheless important.

 

[dik]

For fire remediation, they often rely on treatment and encapsulation of the charred areas to 'eliminate' odours.

Dik

 

[dik]

Ron wrote, "Hey Wayne...what's up? They should have issued their report by now! Go kick some a$$!"

Any news?

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Actually, no letter. I'm wondering if the forensic engineer confirmed our previous reports and the insurance company is scrambling. I sure hope they are fair enough to actually show us the report.

I'm giving them until after Thanksgiving and then I'm going to officially ask for the report.

Thanks.


Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[concretemasonry]

One thing that bothers me is that much of this is based on the fire department said "the temperature of the interior was 900 degrees". This apparently is based on the experience and the temperatures of the external clothing.

The link between the

Does the external mean "inside the paint"?, which is common term used for property and personal property.

What was the condition of the batt insulation? Surely if it was fiberglass, it would have been melted. If it was blown bulk cellulose, it may still be performing.

That temperature (radiant heat) and any lack of back-up is certainly a big point and easily attacked, especially relating to the interior wood temperatures behind the remains of a surface that still can block the radiant heat.

Perhaps the gypsum board manufactures (damage/duration) have information that the insurance company has discovered.

These cases can get very drawn out without professional engineering and legal advice. I am sure the insurance company has seen many similar situations.

Dick

 

[BVWayne]

Good points. In fact, that helps, because we do have info from manufacturer and truss specialist. We have worked with only professionals in this matter at a great expense to ascertain what damage we are really looking at. In fact, knowing what I know now, I recommend everyone get their own evaluation.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

Ron, got the call from the adjuster and the forensics disagreed with everything, except he agreed the dry-wall in the entire house has to go. So, we got what we expected out of the insurance guy's report. How do I communicate with you privately again? I haven't gotten the actual report, but due to the highly possible future litigation, I'm concerned about posting some docs publicly.

I have all the original reports I'd like to forward for your reference. I'll be posting for the enjoyment of everyone else that has taken an interest in this subject pics and reports to give you a better idea of what we're dealing with.

If we don't chat until Thanksgiving... May you have a great day.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
Pretty much what we expected. I agree with not posting publicly.

As for contacting me, try the FAQ route as rowing engineer noted above....copy and paste this link or link directly from rowing engineer's post above.

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=162

You should be able to leave a feedback comment to me in which you can leave your contact info...the comments are not public, so no one will see it that way. I'll call you as soon as I get the feedback. Post back in this forum when you've left the message and I'll check.

If I don't get it, I'll take another route to get the contact done.

Looking forward to this one.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[scottiesei]

Wayne,
Can you post some pictures of the damage to your roof trusses?
SS

 

[dik]

Any interesting developments on this?

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Hi Guys,

Got a call from the insurance and the forensic guy they hired of course, did not agree on any of the reports. I got the news on my way up North. I am at a HUD meeting in DC all week and I haven't actually read their report.

It's all going to be interesting Dik, because I'm standing firm on what I believe and especially stand firm on everyone's credentials involved in this matter.

If an insurance company chooses to hire a sinkhole expert to give an opinion on trusses, then maybe I should go to an OBGYN for that tooth ache I have.

More to come. Hope everyone is enjoying their turkey sandwiches.

Wayne



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

I won't ask where your mouth has been <G>...

Dik

 

[dik]

First, I guess, it's a matter of determining his credentials. Will the insurance company provide his CV? The insurance company, by chance, doesn't have the initials SF?

Dik