JAL A350 burns at Haneda Airport after collision on runway 15

[Alistair_Heaton]

There are multiple systems and procedures that are meant to help prevent this.

They range from lighting systems and stop bars through to ground radar and transponders.

The spanner in the works is Government aircraft tend to have dispensations to avoid/not turn on some of these systems for operational reasons or just plain they don't want to pay for them.

I didn't hear anything unusual in the ATC recordings.

Personally if I heard taxi Carlie 5 that's what I would do and put the hand break on until spoken to again.

I have 2700 hours on the Q400 have zero clue about the A350.

 

[dik]

Not an assumption, tug... that's why I offered New Orleans, as an example... Compare that to Fukushima.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SnTMan]

Not race. Culture.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[TigerGuy]

Not race, not culture. MANNERS

 

[dik]

corrected... thanks.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[EdStainless]

Great job in getting everyone off using three slides, two of them slow because they were too flat and one that must have looked like a straight drop from the plane.
I took part in an evacuation drill once. It is bad enough when you know that there is no danger.

What I didn't hear in the ATC tape is any readback of instructions from the Dash8.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[Murph 9000]

Yeah, I didn't hear a readback from the DHC-8 on the LiveATC recording, but it's not entirely unusual for one side to be missing on those. It could be the radio and antenna combination on the DHC-8 were just not strong enough to be picked up by the LiveATC receiver. It should be on the official ATC tapes from the tower.

 

[SwinnyGG]

If the passengers were mostly Japanese... they may be a little more constrained to act properly... I'm not racist... just an observation

You have assumed the Japanese will be more orderly during a chaotic incident.

You two get into the wildest exchanges, I swear.

Anyway, you're talking about a cultural trait, not a racial one.

Anyone who argues that Japanese culture doesn't place a MUCH higher value on politeness, social decorum, and personal social duty than the average western state simply have not spent significant time there. There are (many) fundamental differences between their cultural norms and ours, and this is one of the major ones.

Anyway, back to the topic.

Regarding the performance of the composite airframe in this incident.. others have said it was poor. I'm working only from memory, but there have been a few similar incidents involving conventional airframes, and this one to me appears to have held up relatively well - possibly better than an aluminum structure, although there's no easy comparison to make.

I would anticipate composite structures likely being more fire resistant by a fair margin. Although maybe the loads on an aluminum structure are low enough when not actually flying that a rapid loss of strength due to fire doesn't immediately make things start falling off.

For the more experienced aerospace guys, is there a general consensus on fire resistance of composite structures as compared to traditional bonded aluminum structures?

 

[dik]

concur... I thought the orderly exit was both lucky and very well executed.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[3DDave]

Typical post-crash fires on aluminum aircraft look very much the same as for this one; the exceptions are those that don't burn because they crashed from running out of fuel.

What most often happens is the fire crew puts more effort into dousing the flames, interrupting the melting process earlier. This typically is shown in news coverage as to how terrible the crash was, but most of the time the airframe was fine after the crash and while occupants were escaping and only after that did all the major damage occur. To be fair to the news people, they have to wait until many hours later to even see the crash site, so there is no other image to show, and are only alerted after the fire has started to even go there.

In this case there isn't much value in putting out the A350 fire, of which they had two to deal with. The Dash-8 and the A350 both became unsalvageable in short order and the Dash-8 still had people in it.

Once the fire has made it to the cabin there isn't much maintaining structural integrity can do.

 

[hokie66]

Not sure of the nationality of all the passengers. But it was a domestic flight, so probably majority Japanese. There were 12 Australians on board. As the flight was from Hokkaido to Tokyo, maybe some of the people were coming from the ski resorts, so some foreign tourists. The crew had to use megaphones to give directions to leave the plane by three of the eight exits. Whatever the procedure, it worked, without panic or chaos, and the plane miraculously stayed intact long enough for everyone to survive.

 

[LittleInch]

I was still a bit surprised that the fire didn't seem that bad when the passengers were getting out and then really took off despite a whole pile of fire trucks arriving.

Now they had two fires to deal with but there didn't seem to be the foam drenching that those airport fire trucks should be able to?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Tomfh]

How long after the crash was it before the hull incinerated?

 

[spsalso]

On Youtube, someone noted an apparent large dent in the nose of the A350.



spsalso

 

[waross]

If the pilots had seen the aircraft on the runway could they have pulled up in time?
Back in 1978, with several human errors complicated by mechanical issues, a 737 pulled up to avoid a snow plow on the runway.
They missed the snow plow but then crashed with the loss of 43 of 49 lives.

On 11 February 1978, Pacific Western Airlines Flight 314, a Boeing 737-200, crashed at Cranbrook/Canadian Rockies International Airport, near Cranbrook, British Columbia, Canada, killing 43 of the 49 people on board.[1]

The scheduled flight from Fort McMurray International Airport to Castlegar Airport via Edmonton, Alberta, Calgary, Alberta and Cranbrook, British Columbia crashed after its thrust reversers did not fully stow following an aborted landing to avoid a snowplow on the runway. Calgary air traffic control was in major error in its calculation of the flight's arrival time at Cranbrook, and the flight crew did not report while passing a beacon on final approach.[2][3]

WIKI

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its very hard to see an aircraft on the runway at night. You have the top beacon and rear white light, you can't see the wing red and green. And yes we practise this in the sim. Heavy aircraft though don't change direction instantly plus the engines will take 5-10 seconds to spool up once at flight idle.

Once your on the ground and reversers deployed you can't reject the landing on a Jet. Turbo props you can even if your have selected beta reverse.

The fire characteristics of composite hulls have been shall we say an academic discussion with a bit of politics thrown in. To my knowledge this is a first of predominately composite, there are not many types with a composite hull.

The Q400 can take about 5.3 tons of fuel max. And the A350 will have had about 3-4 tons onboard final reserve.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy4RIvRcwUo

the A350 had landed when it hit it,

And it looks like the engines were still running when the pax were going down the slides.

 

[dik]

It's great to have a fly guy on the site...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

Not cleared for takeoff:

"Newly released transcripts of air traffic control instructions just before the crash confirmed the JAL Airbus A350 was cleared to land.
Permission for take-off was not given to the coastguard Bombardier Dash-8.

According to officials, the JAL flight was cleared to land on runway 34R at Haneda while the coastguard aircraft was told to "taxi to holding point C5" - a place on the airfield's taxiway system where aircraft await permission to enter the active runway for take-off.

The transcript shows the coastguard aircraft acknowledged the call from air traffic to taxi to the holding point - its last transmission before the collision."

and

"The transcripts appear to contradict the coastguard plane's captain - the only one of the six crew to survive - who told investigators he had been given permission to enter the runway which the JAL airliner was approaching."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67874607

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its great for me to see some engineering logical analysis.

Q400 apparently was doing earthquake relief flights. So I am guessing it will be around 25 tons.

I suspect when they hit the nose they took out the avionics bay which will have had the control coms lines to the fadecs to shut the engines down.

Apparently it was 8 mins after it came to a stop and fire was seen until the doors opened, and evacuation was complete at 18 mins.

The 8 mins is a bit worrying, cabin crew without instruction from the cockpit are meant to initiate evacuation in the event of fire, smoke or structural damage on the ground if nothing heard from the front ( we give a PA as soon as the aircraft comes to a stop that cabin crew should standby) so i would expect the doors to have opened in under 30 seconds. 10 mins is a bit longer than the 90 seconds to get everyone off. BUt i susepct with the avionics bay gone the PA and intercom system will have been taken out.

The hull being able to last 18mins is truly outstanding.