Jerkholes at the office 14

[HVACctrl]

This has happened more than once and is happening one again- running into total jerks at the office. At my previous job, it was the boss. He was very disrespectful and crude. I couldn't deal with or even believe someone would be that way.

Now I am working for a controls contractor. There are two "pseudo-engineers" (no engineering degree or education, but in the role as "engineers") who, although they are not my bosses, are fairly well-anchored and influential in the company (small company). They are both pretty negative towards me. I am a mechanical engineering graduate and will be testing for my PE license in 3 weeks, although a license is not required in this position.

Just curious if others have expereinced total jerks in the office- those who, you know you can't smart off to because they can either fire you or get you fired.

How do you deal with it?

Am I possibly being too submissive to start off so that they sense this and take advantage of my good nature?

Thanks for any ideas.

Ed

 

[IRstuff]

No problem... I was basing this all on your initial posting.

TTFN

 

[HVAC68]

Thinking from a different angle.

This could be due to a job security issue for the so-called "jerks". Here's a new guy coming in, who is more qualified (definitely academically) and probably has the potential to be their boss and start creating trouble for them. May be this is what they must be thinking ???

I've been into similar situations in the past and continue to have problems, whenver I join a new organisation. I have got over these issues, primarily by having a one-to-one talk (depends on the other person as well) as well as having a clear-cut job role/responsibility matrix drawn so that some amount of ambiguity gets resolved.

Good luck.

HVAC68

 

[HVACctrl]

Thanks HVAC68,
One of our subcontractors mentioned to me that this could be the case. It could be true, especially based on several comments I have heard them make as well as other factors.

Even so, they are pretty-well established at the small company where I work- one for about 12 years, one for about 8. I think it silly for them to be threatened, but I guess it happens.

Even if this is the cause, I am still not sure how to remedy the situation. Do I overly express my admiration and awe at their capabilities? This would be hard for me to do as it would be kind of fake. I have, however, shown them respect regarding their experience and capabilities.

Just the other day, one of them made a comment on a panel I was building. I thanked him for the advice. Then, later, when it appeared there could be a glich, he said "I told you, but you said you had it all under control". This was just the opposite, I had heeded his original advice. But, yet, he was more than willing to bask in the glory of my possible failure, blame it on me AND interject that he had advised otherwise. Maybe that could be a little insecurity on his part.

Determining how to handle things of this nature is the hard part.

Ed

 

[Zapster]

HVACctrl you say:

There are two "pseudo-engineers" (no engineering degree or education, but in the role as "engineers")

No, I don't at all feel or act superior. In fact, I show nothing but respect for their experience and knowledge.

If you don't mind, please explain what is appalling about my attitude towards others?

Look at your own statements above and decide for yourself what might be wrong with your attitude. Then you proceed to talk about these guys behind their back to a subcontractor:

One of our subcontractors mentioned to me that this could be the case.

You are no better than the “pseudo-engineers,” only slightly less obvious about it. You may consider looking for a new job if the people you have discussed negative issues regarding the two “pseudo-engineers” discuss your conversation behind your back with the “pseudo-engineers.” Talking behind people’s backs seems to be commonplace around you. Do you think that the subcontractor will find an alliance with an EIT of greater value than skilled engineers with 20 years combined experience? HVACctrl, after rereading your comments I believe, you feel superior to what you call the “pseudo-engineers.” When called on it, you offer up excuses to justify your behavior. Some of the name calling you made in your first post could be applied to you just as easily the two “pseudo-engineers.”

It looks like it is not just bad luck that you keep running into total jerks. I suspect that you bring them out of the woodwork.

 

[MedicineEng]

I believe that we have here the classical fight "experience vs. formal education" and that's it.
They will continue to make your life miserable until you put them in their place.
I will tell you a past experience that I had:
One previous job that I had was in a company where I was the Enginnering director's assessor. Later the department was split in two and I was promoted to head of one of hte parts being my former boss the head of the other. By that time he was in the company 16 or 17 years and I was at 2 years.
After that he started having some strange atitudes towards me. I had been already warned that he was quite blunt and sometimes even a jerk but up to that moment he had been quite polite to me. Our relationship saw some degradation after my promotion until one day that we had a very nasty talk over the phone.
In the same day, I went to my office, wrote him an email saying that I was feeling that relationship degradation since my promotion, naming the wrong attitudes that he had had towards me and tell him very clearly that I would not accept that kind of behaviour anymore and in case of repetition I would go directly to the CEO. In the following day in the morning when he read the email, he came to me, apologized and this never happened again.
Sometimes you have to show your teeth for them to know that you can also bite.

Good luck

 

[quark]

My advice is not to comment about them infront of your subcontractors or any other colleagues (who are friendly with you at the moment). Times may swing and you may have to regret it.

Sometime back I was playing with my crude boss (just like yours) by taking help from one of the jerks. When the boss left, the jerk became my boss and I had to renew my tactics immediately, but there was a time lag. I could pressurize that fellow only with my resignation. It worked on him heavily but I had to walk out as I wanted to stick to it.

Be calm, try to grab as much knowledge as possible, admire their capability of holding places though they don't seem to be capable(?), glue a smile to your face and be humble.

 

[HVACctrl]

Zapster,
I see your point. It looks like I feel superioir.

I can assure you that I don't feel or act that way. As mentioned, I would never disrespect them regarding their education. In reality, they brought up the fact, not me.

I was not talking behind their back by writing this.

I was not coming up with excuses as you mention.

I did nothing to bring this out in them. In fact, several people have mentioned that they deal with the same problems with these two.

Perhaps I just can't handle it as well. Perhaps I see a problem and I feel it needs fixing, not sweeping under the rug.

They began mentioning my education, etc... I said nothing of it except here on this forum.

Yes, that was childish, and I regret it because it really has diverted from the real scenario I amfacing.

Ed

 

[dbooker630]

I have to agree with HVAC68's approach.

I recall when I transferred to a new position, as the so-called "educated" engineer working alongside two other metallurgists who did not possess degrees but had about ten years more experience. One of them clearly resented my presence, especially when he got nosy and found out my salary. The other was not as agressive but he considered himself qualifed to be our boss even though he was passed over for the position.

The comments were not just behind my back, they were in my face too. I suppose one reaction would have been a swift punch to the jaw but that joy wouldn't last for long. I toughed it out for nine years, simply letting my work speak for me. I did not come there to make friends, only make a living. I learned to ignore.

Anyway, I became their boss! Again the resentment was open and fiery. Yet I was able to gain their respect with a simple gesture. I got them business cards, the first ones they ever had in 20+ years of working there. It worked to raise the morale and it allowed me to trust them. To add to that we were into a major quality issue and I did not have any time for any BS. I wasn't so naive as to think they didn't talk about me anymore but it wasn't in my face either (everything they said came back to me anyway as their buddies were mine too!).

I don't see anything wrong with feeling superior to others, it's a lot better than feeling inferior. You just don't broadcast it to make it obvious - that is really being a jerk.

Be strong and try not to unload on them - I know it's tempting.

 

[plasgears]

I worked for over three years in such an environment. My advice is:

GET OUT!

Then give the top boss a message why you left. He may appreciate it. After I left, the clowns were terminated.

 

[HVACctrl]

THanks, everyone.

Again, not coming up with excuses, I want to re-itereate some things.

I didn't talk negatively behind these guys backs to our subcontractor. He (the sub contractor) is an extremely nice guy who merely asked how I was doing. I didn't put a negative spin on these guys (and haven't to anyone), but I did mention that I didn't think I was fitting in with them. He then casually suggested that they might have security issues.

I never treated them badly, never disrespected them, nothing. In fact, everytime I approach them, I am respectful and mindful of their time, etc....

Zapster says I am no better for talking about them. I want to stress that my talking about them was a constructive effort to help determine a path to resolution- no mud slinging, etc.... It was all positive.

Again, I am not coming up with excuses. I wrote the original post the way I did because I was upset at the time. I have never expressed this attitude towards them. In fact, I respect their achievements and capabilities.... its their attitudes towards me AND OTHERS that I cannot stomach. It throws all the other good stuff out the window.

I laid out their backgrounds and mine to help give you guys some of the background. It seems to have lead some people into thinking its an experience vs education struggle (which, maybe it is) while it seems to have led some into believing I have a superior attitude towards them. But I really don't. I just presented it in an inappropriate manner.

But I do see your point and how you might interpret things.

Ed

 

[wes616]

Again, not coming up with excuses, I want to re-itereate some things.....But I do see your point and how you might interpret things.

Best advice anyone has ever given me... when you point a finger at someone, remember that there are three pointing back at you

I work in a company with a mix of people... some with lots of experince and no education, some with none, but plenty of degrees... and a range in the middle...

I don't think anyone here knows that I have a masters degree in engineering... I also don't think anyone cares... just my personal impression... The best mentor I have had as an engineer, had no degree. He couldn't stand me at first, because I did... and honestly, I (completely unintentionally) treated him as if he were inferior... Then my boss had a conversation with me... either get along with *bob* or go away!... lo and behold, I eventually came to understand the error of my way, befriended bob (more - he befriended me)! and if I had to choose, I'd have taken 4 years with bob, in lieu of four years at U.

just my **humble** opinion!

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[HVACctrl]

Thanks Wes.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't really think I mistreated them or acted superior. But who knows? Perhaps my personality comes across that way- totally inadvertantly if so.

I did mention their backgrounds (but only in this thread) because they have gone out their way to point out mine. I think it could be a sticking point for them in a way.

It looks like I'll try harder to take the high road (when I say "high road", I don't mean superior in any way) and see what I can do to emphasize that I am not a threat and that I don't feel superior.

If that doesn't work and these guys can't lighten up, I may talk to one or both of them.

Still not working, I may talk to my boss- one of the owners.

If that doesn't doesn't work, I think its really not worth having to deal with the totally unnecessary stress and mental angusih to continue to work here.

A little more background: Someone mentioned that they had combined 20 years experience. That is not the case. One has about 21 years (with 12 at this company) and one has about 24 (with 8 at this company). They are well expereinced guys. They are extremlely knowledgeable and intellectual. I have 9 total years of experience plus 2 co-op years while in school. Most of my years of experience were not in this exact type of setting, but in this general field. ALL of theirs was in this EXACT setting.

Ed

 

[THEReifleman]

Frankly, HVACctrl, I can’t believe some of the responses your getting from posters I’ve come to respect on other topics. Clearly, they have not had to work under this exact type of circumstances before. I have and I know what you’re probably going through.
My first job out of school was in a manufacturing company with an engineering dept. of eight “engineers” and drafters. Myself and one other engineer was degreed. We were both experienced in manufacturing environments and knew how show respect and get help from the experienced shop floor workers and machinists as well as the “engineering” staff who had been there for a while. The engineering manager had only a high school education but years of experience in the industry, so fair enough.
The problem was primarily with one of the “engineers”. He didn’t like us even though we NEVER acted superior nor treated him with complete respect. Two incidents describe daily activities there. We were in a staff meeting discussing scheduling. I can’t remember what brought this subject about but without any provocation, after I had just made some comment about out topic, this person turns to me and states, “Well, if you were such a fat slob, you wouldn’t have issues like that!” I was stunned at such an unprofessional comment completely uncalled for. Additionally, half those present (the people who had been there a while) laughed along with him. I caught myself just before I told him I now understood why his wife just left him. No sense lowering myself to his level. (he was fooling around on her, inviting girlfriends over while hiss home babysitting his two young children. He should have paid attention to how quickly his kids were learning to talk.)
Second, I was under my desk one day reinstalling my computer (was double duty as the network administrator). He comes into my office, sees me on the floor, grabs one of my legs and drags me out into the hallway proclaiming to the whole office he’s landed a whale. This was typical behavior for many there including the general manager.
This company had lost five of their previous engineers (degreed) within the last 2 years. The other engineer soon quit (sadly, we became friends and he kept encouraging me to hang in there until I had enough engineering experience to find a better position). Then, after 17 months, they laid me off due to “inadequate job performance”. I asked regularly for a performance review, performance evaluation, anything to let me know if I was meeting their expectations. I told my manager several times that I was not looking for a pay increase, just some sort of sign of what I needed to improve or if everything was okay. He said I was doing fine, every time. Then, out of the blue, lay off. The manager (who had never held an actual engineering position) told me I might consider going into another profession. I had to laugh! I’ve had stellar performance reviews in every position I’ve held since then, obtained my PE, and one of the points that continually comes up is I am respected by and work well with my peers. I get along well with the trades people as well, mainly because I show a great deal of respect for their expertise and let them know I value what they teach me.
Back to the story, the state initially denied my unemployment claim until I shared this bit of information, then my benefits were awarded within a week. By the way, the company folded <12 months after my layoff.

So, HVACctrl, my advice is dust off the resume and get to looking. There are great jobs with great people out there, lots of them. Too many to mire your career in a bad environment. You just have to look at the people in this forum to see that there are some rich working relationships to be had.

IMHO, for IRstuff's benefit. ;-)

 

[HVACctrl]

Thanks Reifleman,
Similar deal with me- unprovoked, negative, unprofessional aggressive actions.

I'm sorry to hear what you had to deal with. Good leaders bring people up with them. I had two VERY good examples for whom I have worked. In retrospect, it seemed that they were also dogged (behind their backs) by others who either didn't get them or didn't like them (for some unexplained reason).

I have gotten along VERY well with others in different atmospheres as well.

I guess its just one of those things. Some people take advantage of the good nature of others. They see it as a weekness or an opportunity to put others down in a vain attempt to raise themselves up. Crazy, I think.

I'll keep my eye open. Right now my focus is the PE- 3 weeks until test time.

Hopefully, if things go well with that, I will have more/ better options.

Thanks again for sharing.

Ed

 

[THEReifleman]

He didn’t like us even though we NEVER acted superior nor treated him with ANYTHING BUT complete respect.

sorry

 

[waskillywabbit]

Since you spend at least a third or more of your awake life at work, find a place to work that is at least pleasant, if not rewarding. Life is too short to spend it working w/ jerkholes. Get your PE test out of the way and find a new job.

Good luck.

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm a jerkhole too, but I had to laugh out loud at the "landed a whale" story. LOL

Brian

 

[ziggi]

Wow Reifleman, the people you had to deal with sound like utter tools.

I'm not saying your methods are incorrect, nor your way of dealing with things, I assume they work for you.
I personally refuse to back down and I never just walk away from an issue. It gets solved one way....or another.
I used to ignore certain issues and they either fester or follow me to my next place.

Now I can take my fair share of ribbing, alot of ribbing, and I always enjoy a good laugh at my expense or that of others, but the person doing the ribbing better be ready for thrice the amount back from me.

However if the person shows aggression I never, ever, back down, mind you I'm 6ft5 and used to kickbox competitively so aggression usually doesn't surface when people deal with me, but I've had a tradesmen threaten to beat the snot out of me with a wrench before.....needless to say I'm still full of snot, he wears a tensor bandage around his knee and we get along great. Sometimes violence solves all your problems.

 

[Heckler]

However if the person shows aggression I never, ever, back down, mind you I'm 6ft5 and used to kickbox competitively so aggression usually doesn't surface when people deal with me, but I've had a tradesmen threaten to beat the snot out of me with a wrench before.....needless to say I'm still full of snot, he wears a tensor bandage around his knee and we get along great. Sometimes violence solves all your problems.

Sometimes people need a good flogging to bring them back to reality.

 

[FACS]

......
.................Jerkhole?.................

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[HVACctrl]

FACS,
Don't know where that came from.... Pure inspiration I guess!