maintaining objectivism (when all about are losing their's) ... 2

[rb1957]

i found this an interesting read ...

http://mol.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/RobertBidinotto/OzoneDepletion.html

i liked the way he illuminated the alarmist claims and hyperbole on both sides of the issue and stayed with the "facts". What I took from the article was ...
1) there was no ozone hole (but a naturally occurring thinning) and there was no threat of increased skin cancers,
2) CFCs do add atomic Chlorine to the upper stratosphere (which doesn't sound like a good thing), and
3) the economic disaster predicted by the CFC manufacturers didn't happen.

i think there's a similar story playing out with the climate change debate. I think it is irrelevent that the climate hasn't warmed or cooled significantly over the last decade ... the timescale is too short for any change to be relevent.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[Hurricanes]

The point I am making is that while that piece from 1994 infers UV levels are dropping and the ozone hole is therefore hardly an issue in this regards is poor.

Forget about the colour of your skin, go 30 minutes in the summer sun in Christchurch and compare it with 30 minutes in the summer sun in Carins. One is a lot hotter than the other, but it won't burn you anywhere near as much as the other.

 

[GregLocock]

a) look up the meaning of the word infer

b) I give up.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[Hurricanes]

Fine. Cairns is hot. Christchurch is cold. You'll get sunburnt far quicker in Chch than Cairns. Why would this be?

 

[TGS4]

Is this an anecdote or actual measures data?

 

[GregLocock]

Oh no, that bit is right. Cairns is cloudier and further from the ozone hole, Victoria or Tasmania are less cloudy and significantly closer to the ozone hole. But that has presumably been the case for thousands of years.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[ManifestDestiny]

Ayn Rand didn't come up with anything new. It's called "science", repackaged and regurgitated and decorated in a manner appealing to a certain mindset.

Probably the single best line regarding Ayn Rand

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

 

[zdas04]

Brad1979,
You are really big on calling other people "ignorant" and "have no clue what they are talking about", I don't see you adding much value here. Saying

I'd like to believe this is just ignorance but its pretty basic physics and even if you were ignorant, any engineer should be able to take an hour or so to read up on how the greenhouse effect works. But when that doesn't happen the explanation has to move from simple ignorance to willful disbelief

seems to imply that you have some basic knowledge of physics that I sorely lack. Please oh wise asshat, enlighten us as to what the "Greenhouse Effect" really is.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[Brad1979]

I spent way more time than I should have trying to show you this in the "can of worms" thread and I have no desire to hash through that again.

 

[rb1957]

back to 'canes and greg's discussion ...
i think there is a depletion of ozone between August and November for natural reasons. I believe that this has always been happening (for the same natural processes). I'd reckon that these are probably not prime sun-bathing months, particularly in the southern parts of Oz, NZ and "the republic" SA. So I think that the skin cancer "scare" was produced by the "believers" of the ozone hole, a "logical" conclusion from "if ozone reduces the amount of UV light reaching the surface, then reducing the amount of ozone will increase the amount of UV light, which will increase the skin cancer rate". however the link says this isn't so; well, i think it is more that the ozone depletion doesn't coincide with the peak UV so the elevated UV under the depleted ozone is less than the peak UV (under the full ozone layer at peak summer). but then i haven't done to much research on skin cancer rates in Oz, NZ ...

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[cranky108]

Is the health concern of ozone real, or is it like the thousands of linemen dieing from exposure to PCB's? The EPA has published so much BS that I don't consiter any of what they say as credible. Just another goverment ABC orginization up there with the IRS, NSA, and ATF.

My thoughts are the CFC thing was just made up scare. However I do believe Cl is a health concern in itself, and it should be banned from water supplies. Ozone would be a much better treatment for water because it has fewer residules in the water treated.

 

[urgross]

Reading all this leads to only one conclusion: Listening to Commander Cody singing about getting lost in the ozone again is much more interesting.

Any good fluoridation conspiracies still out there?

 

[cranky108]

I do know that too much fluordation causes problems, and that has been confirmed.

But we can add it to hot dogs and no one will care.

 

[SnTMan]

urgross, listening to Commander Cody sing about anything is its own reward

Anybody remember the whole Radon thing? It's (was) gonna kill us all.

 

[cranky108]

In places, a radon test is completed with a termite inspection, and meth test of a home before you purchase it.

Radon was discovered because of three mile island and measurment of employees for radation exposure. Who ever though workers would come to work with higher exposure than when they left. Still consitered one of the worst nucular events, but the positive side effect is never discussed in the news.

Did radon cause lung cancer, or was that just the smoking habit? Can't sew the person who dug your basement, but you can sew the smoke seller.

Yea, yea, it seems like everyone has an agenda.

So, in God we trust, everyone else bring data.

 

[cranky108]

So is being called a "flat earther" a political slur? It is certently insulting and demeaning, and should be put on the same level as any rase based slur.

Bet the news media won't report that angle.

 

[rb1957]

maybe it implies "holding to out-dated ideas" which doesn't sound particularly nasty.

maybe it means "stupidly holding to out-dated ideas" which is somewhat nasty.

the sluriness (??) of a comment is IMO in the ear of the beholder as much as it is in the mouth of the speaker

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[JohnRBaker]

So is being called a "flat earther" a political slur? It is certently insulting and demeaning...

How is this any different than what the far-Right has been trying to do for years with the word 'Liberal', and more recently, 'Progressive'? And how about all of this 'Democrat Party' crap?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cranky108]

Have you looked up the meaning of liberal and progressive?

The science is not settled, and in many cases it has been shown to be questionable, so I guess name calling is the next step for a selfish little child. Beyond that I would expect a tantrum.

My viewpoint is simple, if simple ideas for a solution are ignored, then it is not a real concern. If it is not a real concern, why should I believe it is true?

So we at the point of name calling so as to dismiss anyone who disagrees. It's not like the president or anyone of his staff ever asked for ideas from me, or on this page.

I guess we as a group of engineers are unimportant, and have no value in what appears to be panic mode.

Maybe that's the future of engineering, shut up and get back to work. We don't want to hear from you.

 

[urgross]

Cranky,

I think you nailed it on the head. Now shut up and get back to work.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Have you looked up the meaning of liberal and progressive?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/progressive

I'm not sure what the point is that you're attempting to make? Perhaps your comments were a bit too nuanced for us folks.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.