Maybe Finland has smarter students? 31

[dig1]

I've been to Finland several times and work with Finns on a daily basis.

Finland is a small economy as The Tick mentioned but it is a lot more than cell phones. They have excellent fabrication shops for equipment and can actually supply steel tanks to China cheaper than the Chinese can. I've seen the numbers more than once. The company I work for is actually hiring engineers in Finland (mechanical and process) to work on projects in Chile, China, Indonesia, Brazil, India, etc. We are hiring the same skill sets in NA for our end of the projects in the same locations.

Finns are very nationalistic and will do what it takes for their economy to grow so the student walk-out doesn't surprise me in the least. A brief study of heir history will explain why that is.

To respond to flamby, the Finnish government does protect their engineering jobs by investing in facilities to give companies an edge. One example is steel tanks (of meaningful complexity). Finland has one of the lowest fabricated cost in EUR/kg of nearly anyplace in the world. This includes Brazil, India, and China. I've seen the numbers repeatedly from our global sourcing efforts. Believe me, I've tried to prove this notion wrong more than once and occasionally I do. But there is a definite trend showing this to be true. The reason is there shops are very efficient and need nowhere near the labor to do the work. The only things that is hurting them right now is the high Euro.

Believe me, I am not wanting to move there or say it is better than the US, because it isn't and many of their engineers want to transfer to our offices here.

 

[TheTick]

Finnish concerns own a good share of the paper indiustry where I live (Wisconsin, U.S.A). The Finns are a growing presence here, to be sure.

OT:
Pretty heavy Finn population in northern Wisconsin and Upper Michigan, too. Descendants of the immigrant lumberjacks. There were even some Finnish language radio broadcasts that I can remember hearing when I was young(er).

I dream of one day going to Finland for pike and salmon fishing. Maybe when the kids are grown...

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

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[QCE]

Universities control there graduate levels in engineering.

Universities in Canada and I'm sure Finland get most of there funding from government.

I would conclude that it is possible for the government to control engineering graduate levels.

Also in Canada engineering degrees are in a way controlled by the Canadain Council of Professional Engineers. In this way the graduate levels can be controlled. As my friend has mentioned in so many other threads - If Canada could only control the amount of immigrating engineers - We may have a control of the supply. And hence the demand.

It seems that the US has no control over any of the aspects of engineering supply. In this thread some people talk about the need for control of the profession in the Us and in others people say that the profession is controlled by the PE license. I happen to agree that the engineering profession from what I have seen is totally out of control in the US.

I would also encourage some people to read the thread about offshoring because there are a lot of engineers saying that the US government should stop job lose due to offshoring and outsourcing.

 

[ivymike]

What's "out of control" about engineering in the US?

 

[QCE]

Lets try no jobs for starters.

Have you been following the posts.

There are apparently no jobs and no reasons for the young to go into engineering.

 

[JAE]

Our firm (in the US) has recently had a real hard time finding mechanical and electrical engineers...seems like a real shortage to me.

 

[GregLocock]

QCE, I think the posts you've seen are mostly from people who want jobs in their immediate locality. Any automotive engineer (in particular) who enters the profession expecting to work in one nice locale for the whole of their lives is going to learn a nasty lesson.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ivymike]

QCE, how many engineering jobs are currently available in the US? How many engineers are currently seeking those jobs? Perhaps those answers are well known to someone who has been "following the posts" as you suggest. I can say that I've recently switched employers, and had no difficulty negotiating a comfortable pay increase due to the fact that my new employer had been having trouble finding qualified candidates.

 

[BobPE]

The shortage of engineers is so bad in the US that many firms are just buying up engineering houses for the people, not for the work.
Engineering enrolment is down in our engineering schools, so the future does not look any better from that prespective.
The retirement demographic from the baby boomer population is another factor that will start affecting the availability of engineers.
I wast just reading the help wanted adds in the Sunday paper. Almost every add had contained in it "MUST HAVE 4 YEAR DEGREE" I can say that there are a bunch of unqualified "engineers" out there, but that is not what we are talking about here.
As this trend continues, and if engineers remain a commodity, they will become an increasingly valuable commodity provided we do not lower our defination of "engineer" to allow less qualified people to practice in our place. This will happen all on its own, with little or no input from us engineers. If we could only get our act together, we would all be compensated for our true worth as engineers and not as a commodity much sooner and gain more respect in the process.

Bob

 

[GregLocock]

There's a worldwide shortage of experienced automotive engineers - but the car companies won't increase their intern or graduate intake significantly.

If that strikes you as crazy, well, it does me too. I'd have thought if your company needed 10 experienced engineers yesterday then any procative manager would at least recruit one trainee at the same time.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[chris9]

Most car companies are driven by making profit for shareholders. Most shareholders want short term gain and will move their money elsewhere at the first sign of trouble.

Shareholders and the board want to see increased profit in the next quarter. Employing graduates to replace retirees is the sensible thing to do for the longer term but it won't increase profit for the next quarter.

The last British car manufacturer MG Rover has gone into administration because of this short term out look. Oh and by the way the Directors were paid twice that of BMW Directors with a pension fund greater than their salary.

 

[buzzp]

Sorry but I dont see the lack of engineering jobs in the electrical area. Call it luck or whatever, but I have recently turned down two offers in the last 6 months and I was not even looking.
Sure its bad in some parts of the US but if your worth your salary, you can find a job in the electrical area.

 

[QCE]

What do mean "electrical"? That is a very broad area. It could be anything from IT to powerplant engineering to telecommunications. If you can switch between the 3 above I'm sure you can always find work.

 

[buzzp]

Both offers were in consulting (one petro and one doing a bit of everything). My diverse background helps (oil, product design, heavy machinery, and power generation).
No IT and no telecommunications. I would not want to be in tele right now, its way to vulnerable.

 

[DrillerNic]

The P&J (Aberdeen's local newpaper) today had a 2 page spread about the lack of people in all areas of the UK oil industry, the aging workforce etc. I can guarantee that lots of oil companies & oil service companies were on the phone to Rover asking for contact details of laid off Rover workers, getting ready to offer them jobs here: highly paid, highly skilled (and many giving 26 weeks vaction per year).

Welcome to the oil patch guys!

 

[davefitz]

drillernic:

I can see the want ads now: "Engineers needed now for desinging offsea oil platforms and auxiliary equipment. No peteroleum experience needed. Ideal candidate should have experience designing rear seat supports in small sports cars. High salary. Call now"

 

[moltenmetal]

Again this discussion frustrates me. Too many people tossing anecdotes back and forth about supply and demand without the overall stats to draw any reasonable conclusions.

If you want the stats for Canada, again I point you to

http://www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm

so you can see the overall numbers versus time for engineering supply into Canada. Here in Canada, the stats PROVE that there's a massive over-supply of engineers to the marketplace in the overall, general sense.

Does that mean that top-notch engineers with experience in a particular field can no longer find employment with competitors or change jobs? Of course not! But since when do you use the experience of the top 5-10% of the experienced members of a profession to generalize to the average, much less to those just entering the profession?

Does that mean that every company looking for an engineer anywhere in Canada finds exactly the person they want within a week? Of course not! There will always be shortages in some specialties and in some parts of the country. Not everyone wants to relocate their family to take a job in the tar sands of northern Alberta, even for a premium salary, even if they have the experience required for the positions offered. So guess what! The tar sands projects cry "shortage", while thousands of recent immigrant engineers work as factory workers or drive taxis in Toronto. Does that mean the oil sands companies are willing to train significant numbers of new grads or people outside their specialty, or to hire engineers whose English communication skills are significantly sub-par? The job postings certainly don't bear that out if it's true! Like most businesses, they'd rather just continue to cry shortage and hope the government floods the market enough to displace the kind of people they'll actually consider hiring in their direction. And they won't stop b*tching about shortages and lobbying for more supply until they no longer have to pay site premium salaries. You can be guaranteed that when the oil boom busts again, all those people will be back out of work and back in Toronto anyway- but nobody will be there to turn off the tap on the supply...

These Finnish students have the right idea. We'll always need bright young engineers to join our ranks, and immigration of skilled workers is of significant benefit to my country: but a government-driven over-supply from either or BOTH sources as is the current case in Canada is not in the interest of either the engineering profession or of these prospective engineers themselves.

Until every student who graduates from engineering has at least the OPTION to work as an engineer, and until every qualified engineering immigrant to Canada has a realistic chance of finding employment as an engineer if they so choose, we have a very serious problem in our profession. By the way, this IS the situation in virtually every other senior self-regulated PROFESSION in Canada EXCEPT engineering- we're the only idiots who care so little about advocacy and politics that we do nothing to even attempt to control supply. Until this problem is fixed, I won't be promoting this profession as a career option to any kid who asks me about it. And I'll be warning prospective immigrants to make their decision in full knowledge of the REAL situation rather than the hype. If they still choose to come, they're absolutely welcome, but if they can't find a job thereafter it's their tough luck and I'll offer them no sympathy.

 

[QCE]

Moltenmetal,

You are improving your arguement everytime. I hope you can improve the situation in Canada.

I agree with you but always find it funny that I get a couple of job offers a year without looking and everytime the company says that they are having trouble finding engineers. My company has also found problems with finding engineers. Also usually if a friend of mine calls me and he/she is looking for engineering work they 90% of the time have a job within 6-12 monthes. Yes 6-12 monthes sucks but it ain't so bad.

 

[chris9]

There is also a shortage of qualified doctors and lawyers willing to work for £30k per year! Oh and plumbers!

 

[QCE]

The wages that I have seen in England are crazy. I can't believe how low they are. I'm sure many will disagree but the wages in Canada and the US are much higher. In Canada the wages are between $40,000 - $120,000 in general. I have seen new grad positions in England for £20k.