Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04 49

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03

SF Charlie
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[Js5180]

Santos - does this cover all channels? How long are these kept, and what kind of cost are we talking about? Is it full resolution? Does it obviate the need for an in-person guard?

I’m aware that this is possible, but as you said, not entirely common. Regardless, I can’t imagine a modern system with the storage on site but separate from the monitor.

 

[jbourne8]

Js5180, The modern ones are actually the opposite.. they're more likely to have a monitor that isn't near the actual storage. Storage in AWS is crazy cheap these days too.. as long as you're only storing around a week of data, you can store a lot up there without paying much. Storing a TB up there is only around $25 a month, and that'll get you pretty far.

I'm used to working on systems for much larger companies really, but a modern system could look something like this. Although I don't think the server has to be an NVR, it could just be a regular computer too. But yea.. even the CMS doesn't actually have to be next to the monitor up front.. or to the storage on the backend. Usually all of this stuff though is stored in a locked network closet somewhere.. sometimes with the HVAC systems. Could be up front, who knows.

 

[1503-44]

IEGeezer,
Another great translation. Sorry I didnt get back in time to help.
Te invito a comer pulpo y chocos a la grilla y tomar unas cervezas aqui en Canarias.

 

[dik]

Thanks for the incredible effort... wish I could give you a handful of 'stars'.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[boo1]

Document with work to be preformed. Where is the major structural work?

 

[OH_PE]

Where is the major structural work?

"#2320 - Garage/Entrance/Deck Project for 4.4 Million" listed on page 3 of the executive summary.

Page 47 "structural repairs for garage and pool underside, and planter removal/waterproofing"

I'm sorry, but the "Planning For The Inevitable" (trademarked!) at the top of the report made me laugh/cringe when I read it. They might want to come up with a new catch phrase.

 

[dik]

Looks like they were taking this seriously...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[JohnRBaker]

It appears that this has been a wake-up call for the Miami area...

Miami Courthouse To Undergo Urgent Repairs After Inspection Prompted By Condo Collapse

An engineer’s report recommended floors 16 and above at the Miami-Dade County Courthouse be closed to staff.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/miam...irs-condo-collapse_n_60e97667e4b09f0145f32282

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[CE3527]

Couple other interesting items of note in the Reserve Study report:
It states the security surveillance system is from 2017 but still recommended replacement due to advancing technology, and inadequate resolution.

It confirms the fire alarm system has 27 flow sensors, which should have triggered the alarm when flow was sensed in the sprinkler system. Question remains why the F/A didn't activate when sprinkler lines broke in the garage. Speculation here, that these devices either weren't working or were deactivated to prevent false alarms.

 

[1503-44]

Yes. The fire pumps should have activated when the system lost pressure through the broken lines. The sensors were most likely not flow sensors, but low pressure sensors. Flow sensors might not trigger on a slow leak that might even drain the system after awhile. Pressure sensors don't distinguish between pressure lost due to a sprinkler activation by fire, or due to a broken feed line. Low pressure by any cause activates the alarms and turns on the fire pumps (if there were pumps required in that system, probably so for that height). It seems the fire system should have activated to flood any line breaks, if not from pumps, just by the city water pressure alone.

Kind of points to feed water break at supply source, or the entire fire system was deactivated, not just the alarms.

BTW somebody commented above about confusing the word for buckling in es, "Pendeo" is not the same as what you were probably thinking, "pendejo".

 

[CE3527]

Here is the account of security guard Shamoka Furman on a GoFundMe page set up by Raysa Rodriguez. I have two questions about it though:
1) Wouldn't it be a fire code violation for the lobby doors to not have fail safes that would allow them to open during a power loss?
2) Since the lobby did not have a door to the stairwell, how did Shamoka enter the stairwell to help Maria Monteagudo escape through the garage?

"At approx 1:30am Shamoka heard and felt what she thought was an earthquake. Then the power went out. She called 911. When residents began to call down to the desk, Shamoka told them to "get out of the building immediately". Since the power was out, the front doors of CTS wouldn't open. Shamoka had to crawl through the valet key window. Once she saw there were residents trapped inside she crawled back through. This all happened in a matter of seconds. She grabbed an older resident, worked her way through the collapsed parking garage crawling through water, debris, over crushed cars and finally carrying the resident over a wall and safely out to Collins Ave. She made her way back in to the building and helped an entire family escape this time. She was badly injured in the process. She is covered with bruises from head to toe and may have a cracked rib. She is going to the hospital today. By the time first responders arrived, she was physically ill and hunched over on the street. Shamoka is physically injured and severely traumatized. She is a survivor and a hero. Unfortunately, her only posession in life was the car her deceased mother gave her that was in the visitors parking next to the pool area. As many of you have seen, the remaining portion of the building has been demolished"

 

[SFCharlie]

Please forgive any errors.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, This video say with much clearer explanations and much more authority, what I would like to say about this design style.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[pellucidar]

The fire pumps should have activated when the system lost pressure through the broken lines. The sensors were most likely not flow sensors, but low pressure sensors. Flow sensors might not trigger on a slow leak that might even drain the system after awhile. Pressure sensors don't distinguish between pressure lost due to a sprinkler activation by fire, or due to a broken feed line. Low pressure by any cause activates the alarms and turns on the fire pumps (if there were pumps required in that system, probably so for that height). It seems the fire system should have activated to flood any line breaks, if not from pumps, just by the city water pressure alone.

Kind of points to feed water break at supply source, or the entire fire system was deactivated, not just the alarms.

There are 24 flow sensors in the original plans (image, before the penthouse) with none in the basement. The alarm announcement did eventually sound, according to survivors.

 

[IEGeezer]

Thanks. I've never been there, maybe some day. By the way, do you speak Silbo, or rather can you whistle it?


You're very welcome.


Buckling is not Pendeo. It is Pandeo, so no resemblance to (bleep).

 

[gonefishing2]

At the risk of further exposing my ignorance, I have not seen any discussion on why the elevator shaft and equipment room above the 12 floor roof, are skinny beam and column with block in fill, and not a continuous shear wall to top of elevator equipment room and tied to the 12 floor shear wall and structural roof slab.

And then it gets worse with 2nd version of PH addition, with the shaft extension from the original penthouse addition design.

Seems odd to me that Boot leg penthouse has no shear wall reinforcement, and thinned slab roof kinda floating on top with the elevator shaft.

Perhaps the experts might want to discuss this, or after reading all posts, I missed it, please forgive me.

Also it appears to me that the original plan was that Stair tower adjoining elevator shaft was also supposed to be part of RC shear wall, yet it appears to be block fill between columns and beams.

 

[pellucidar]

Other than that I agree floors should have had beams but since AC ducts are needed in a dropped ceiling unsure if beams would have added to the height of each floor.

The ductwork seems to be in dropped ceilings away from the outside walls. See timestamp 1:50 in the tour of 611.

 

[gonefishing2]

Having HVAC experience and looking at duct design, I don't see why that duct design would effect beams at perimeter and in hallway walls. Duct system is very hotel like where you are not supplying air to outside wall, and then returning air to air handler at interior of space.

 

[gonefishing2]

Or beams in between units

 

[DavPc]

There are 24 flow sensors in the original plans (image, before the penthouse) with none in the basement. The alarm announcement did eventually sound, according to survivors.

That's unfortunate the developer decided a fire in the garage wasn't worth waking everyone up for.

Since they sensors were only on the living space floors, it would indicate there were no collapses on the upper floors as have been suspected since a break in the fire lines up there would have triggered the alarm. And we know from the unit 711 Ring video the only sounds were that of drywall dust and rebar snapping - no fire alarm or strobe lights - until after the video was interrupted due to the full-on collapse.

It states the security surveillance system is from 2017 but still recommended replacement due to advancing technology, and inadequate resolution.

That makes a lot more sense. The CCTV flatscreen in the lobby was showing color camera images and if the security system really was 20 years old, it would be highly unlikely to be using color cameras.

 

[gonefishing2]

I am referring to each Condo's split residential looking HVAC systems. I am not talking about the Big Central Building Unit. It does not appear they were taking in any outside make up air for each condo unit, much the same as a typical old school residential home.

They are trying to supply air from near the air handler with short duct runs, in a turn down soffit, with sufficient velocity or throw to reach the outside wall so that the supply air circulates from outside wall to interior return plenum at air handler. So no duct supply or return runs in much of the living space due to low ceiling heights