Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07 90

[Seppe]

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Previous thread (Part 06)
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https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=485223

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[gonefishing2]

The big question is, how much of the designed rebar was actually not in the structure as built and where? It also appears that it varies from place to place and pour to pour. Like perhaps the contractor knew in advance what areas Breiterman would sample inspect, and perhaps those areas were correct. But other areas the contractor knew would not be sample inspected, got less than design rebar? Coupled with many other parameters.

Say for argument's sake, what is 1/2 rebars missing in some slabs? What would deflections be then in those areas?

I guess we are to the point, where we are waiting for the field verification data to be loaded into the models and compared against design data to have a better understanding of how all the parameters played together?

 

[Vance Wiley]

While there are many columns, each slab segment is designed to span only to the original columns. Take away one column and the slab must span twice as far, with much higher moments and the lower reinforcing spliced at the missing column location. Thus theoretically and in simple terms, the positive moment demand has increased by as much as 4 times at the lost column location and the positive reinforcing is spliced there, resulting in zero contribution. Result - collapse.
Basically the only redundancy is the safety factor - the capacity/demand ratio - and that is never designed to be 4 in a market like this. Had the engineer designed for slab spans twice as great, he would have left out half the columns and made those remaining larger.
If everyone is designing and constructing buildings this way in 1980, that defines the market price for buildings. How do you sell better quality in a building during a gold rush boom? Better wallpaper, marble floors - what?
Realtors tout "location - location - location." A prime location has just become available.
At an enormous horrendous cost.

 

[Demented]

Where them roof first guys at?
Our potato cam crane operator friend gave ya'll a present.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[AutisticBez]

Something important might be in that how many years do people expect a condo to stand for? They do all the repairs, how many years do they get out of this structure?

Perhaps a building should be inspected as to how long its physical presence should be anticipated? Is 40 years too long?

 

[spsalso]

The building I'm sitting in right now is 108 years old. It's big need is replacing the (original) cedar shingles on the west wall--maybe next year. Over its life, so far, it's been taken care of pretty well, and "updated" pretty well, too.

It's easy to work on, and a relatively simple wood frame design. I would expect 200 years or more.

FORTY YEARS TOO LONG????????




spsalso

 

[Retrograde]

Punching rebar: It is unclear if any punching shear reinforcing was provided, suffice to say that using today’s codes it would very definitely be required.

I do not agree. I have seen loads of recent slab designs to modern codes where punching shear reinforcement is not required in a 200mm thick slab.

 

[Optical98]

Demented, did he say these were found on the ramp area?

Some of that gear could fit within that 'debris' beyond the entry gate. It would be even better if they'd just come out n say it...

Edit: That kettle wasn't on the roof, or wasn't supposed to be. It could have been sitting on the North side on top of one of those "parking garage" roofs... kettles can way 2000 lbs or more. I wonder if that's why the FFs couldn't get thru that garage area?

 

[Optical98]

Miriam Notkin and her husband from Unit 302, filed a complaint to the Town of Surfside regarding the horrible odors from the roofing operation, she wrote about the crane and kettle being very close to the building.

Link
In chrome translate to english..

Nicolás Vazquez "The smoke, dust, and " unbearable weird smell " also prevented them from breathing normally."

Can tar kettles catch on fire if unattended?

 

[Nukeman948]

Where them roof first guys at? Our potato cam crane operator friend gave ya'll a present.

I'm sure you realize that these pictures prove nothing without context, right? Were they on the roof that was part of the original collapse or from the July 4th demolition? Where and when were they recovered? Is Jimmy Hoffa's body in the tar buggy?
The existence of these items and their condition don't prove any one theory over another.

 

[Optical98]

Zoom in, see for yourself.

 

[Demented]

I'm sure you realize that these pictures prove nothing without context, right? Were they on the roof that was part of the original collapse or from the July 4th demolition? Where and when were they recovered? Is Jimmy Hoffa's body in the tar buggy?
The existence of these items and their condition don't prove any one theory over another.

The above post is why I posted it. I knew someone would have where it came from. Sarcasm doesn't translate very well over the internet, and in my own sick mind I was poking fun at the blurry image CSI roof first people who I am sure had every bit of items on the roof mapped out.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Nukeman948]

Zoom in, see for yourself.

When I zoom in I run out of pixels just before I can read the serial numbers on that equipment.

Right then Obie came to the realization
That it was a typical case of an American
conspiracy theory, and there wasn't nothin'
He could do about it, and the judge
Wasn't gonna look at the twenty-seven 8 by 10
Colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one explainin'
What each one was...

 

[Optical98]

Ok, so adding an image directly turns it into a potato...

Let's try story time again Nukeman

Link

Also, please note my remarks regarding the tar kettle, the large one that looks burned up, not the small ones on thee roof..

 

[Optical98]

Different view

 

[SFCharlie]

Colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one explainin'

Ain't often we get a quote from Alice's Restaurant
Nuk-yoo-lur 'cause you study the Nuk-yoo-less of them there atoms?

SF Charlie
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[SFCharlie]

see for yourself

Yep!

SF Charlie
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[Nukeman948]

Nuk-yoo-lur 'cause you study the Nuk-yoo-less of them there atoms?

Worked at 5 different nuke plants. Palisades and DC Cook are my favorites.

Me and Woody Guthrie's son Arlo are just chillin' on the group W bench.

 

[SFCharlie]

Green

So, is the green saw the green object in the "water streaming in the garage" video???

SF Charlie
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[Nukeman948]

Green So, is the green saw the green object in the "water streaming in the garage" video???

Not a chance, it would have been Much more damaged after falling 13 floors and crashing through the
pool deck.

Two different people see the same picture and come to totally different conclusions as to what they see. That "saw" is actually a power sweeper.

People post pictures here and ask us what we see, but they won't come right out and say what they see.

 

[SFCharlie]

power sweeper would have been Much more damaged after falling 13 floors and crashing through the
pool deck.

Yes, I had been thinking the same of the tar kettle, but how did they remain uncrushed as the black car is flattened? Did the material they were on cushion the blow, or were they on the pool deck already?


SF Charlie
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