Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10 79

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09


SF Charlie
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[NOLAscience]

I think we have to treat all witness statement times as approximate

MaudSTL has noted which times are approximate, and most people would consult their phones when awakened suddenly or made to evacuate a building in the middle of the night. Most people remember that number precisely for several hours after, as in "It was 1:12 am".

Also, MaudSTL, we do appreciate your data collection and organization efforts regarding the witness statements.

I have been away for about a week because of work and helping a family solve an adoption mystery along the lines of "Long Lost Family". So now I will slip away again.

 

[Santos81]

Could this sudden daily flow of air traffic have an effect

No. East flow off the north side is 092 to POTTR at 520’, then next turn (depending on the departure assigned) either inside the bay if able to meet the performance requirements or offshore if unable.

Tonight for example off of 8R

 

[SFCharlie]

This is obviously a picture of my shiny bald head and my big nose ...

SF Charlie
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[Debirlfan]

From the videos, and particularly the third still shot from Daily Mail - Note the orange cone in front of column (I think it's 172?) at the edge of the break by the dark colored car. Not sure it means anything, but interesting placement. Could it have been placed as a warning for damaged or uneven flooring in that area?

 

[Optical98]

Santos81

They show the East Flow as the DEALZ flight path, the top is cut off but -

"Residents are especially troubled by departure routes that converge on a point known as “DEALZ’’ set by the FAA over Keystone Islands in North Miami and Biscayne Park. They say the more concentrated routes are already active.

“It’s like thunder. The planes just come right down over them,” Wilson said, after her staff witnessed the noise at a Keystone Point homeowners’ meeting."

 

[MaudSTL]

It even applies to witness observations given in a time of high mental stress. Someone said the first story is usually the right one. I don't even think that is true.

I agree with you. I posted about this several threads ago. The initial impression while the adrenaline is flowing is more like snapshots…and they are not necessarily in the right order or given accurate relative significance. After the adrenaline stops, these snapshots start to get integrated into a narrative that has some sort of logical flow.

It is very interesting to compare the written description of what happened to Shamoka Furman in her GoFundMe with the verbal in the NBC News version of the body cam video, when she is in trauma.

Per the body cam video, it seems evident that Shamoka rode out the collapse in the lobby, like a captain at the wheel of her sinking ship. She describes calling 911 and handling the switchboard “Get out get out.” She gives a very vivid description of aural experience…she says “boom boom,” thought it was the elevator but no beeps, then “boom boom,” and “the lady ran out and said everything collapsed,” (Sarah Nir?,) called 911, stayed in there to tell everybody get out get out. She describes the pancaking with a trill. She doesn’t even know how she made it out.

She doesn’t mention her rescues in the body cam video, but I have the theory that Shamoka did her rescues immediately, before talking to the cops. This is based on the fact that the body cam videos include someone (the Agueros?) helping their elderly neighbor, and Ileana Monteagudo (611) had to have escaped with Shamoka’s help before them because she was already in the staircase on Floor 4 when the building collapsed. The others who escaped in the east staircase came down after Ms. Monteagudo was already out.

After the rescues, Shamoka goes over, tells the cops who she is, and tells them “They gotta get outta there.”

See what you think.

>>>>>Edit: Note that Shamoka never mentions the thought of pulling a fire alarm. She knows she can’t go knock on everybody’s doors, and she keeps answering the phone and telling individual people to get out. I have to wonder how often she was assigned to this building, since the Nirs all thought she was a man, or if anyone had ever trained her to locate and pull a fire alarm. She definitely felt fully responsible for the people in that building. I have never worked a desk like that, so I have no idea how fire alarms are located for security guards.

 

[MaudSTL]

…we do appreciate your data collection and organization efforts regarding the witness statements.

Thanks. It’s my pleasure to help the team. I think it’s important for the engineers to work through this as quickly as possible. So many have stated they’ve seen buildings that appear to be in much worse shape than this one was. We need to understand better how to recognize when a building is in trouble. CTS has been a wake-up call.

 

[zebraso]

I posted about this several threads ago.

I am sorry I did not give you credit. I obviously internalized it and I did recall someone said words to that effect. You said it much more eloquently as well. If I am not mistaken you also mentioned the unreliable testimony often given by eyewitnesses in criminal proceedings. Or maybe I saw that on Perry Mason.

 

[Optical98]

I was thinking when watching those videos, where are the people one the west side balconies? It's kind of quiet compared to what you can hear in the back. Then I realize...they're all stuck in that stairwell, it's a few minutes later that many came back up to their condo balconies to wait for the fire trucks..

I know some did make it down the stairs and out to the beach. But the staircase deteriorated to the point many couldn't get down them.

 

[Santos81]

They show the East Flow as the DEALZ flight path, the top is cut off but

DEALZ is not a SID, it’s a virtual fix on a RNP AP DP, but it’s dependent on equipment and operator approval (PBN 0.3).

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/community_involvement/florida/media/MIA-Boards-Final.pdf

Off the north side, east flow is typically WINLY2 (first example) or HEDLY2 (second example) RNAV SID.

 

[Optical98]

Santos81

This is directly from the Miami Herald, I think the people living below this new route would highly disagree with you.

"Residents are especially troubled by departure routes that converge on a point known as “DEALZ’’ set by the FAA over Keystone Islands in North Miami and Biscayne Park. They say the more concentrated routes are already active.

“It’s like thunder. The planes just come right down over them,” Wilson said, after her staff witnessed the noise at a Keystone Point homeowners’ meeting."

 

[Spartan5]

Sure, any number of things all more or less equally likely could have fallen from above and triggered the patio failure:
*space debris
*meteorite
*heavy suicide carcass
*cinderblocks, tar paper, and AC units
*drone missile (or just a large drone… I think I saw one with red paint on it)
*UAV
*malicious wheeling of tar buggy off the top
*Failed group BASE jump attempt from poorly installed roof anchor… well just the test anyway… with a green hoist sling full of those tar rolls
*Tower, this is Ghostrider requesting a fly-by
*(reserved for suggestions)

 

[Optical98]

Spartan5

Be sure n add BEWBs....

 

[Santos81]

@Spartan5

Mine Blasting

This is directly from the Miami Herald, I think the people living below this new route would highly disagree with you.

Every departure off 9 and arrival on 27 passes over my house at a MUCH lower altitude.

If you truly believe this theory, do us all a favor. Head over to the FlightAware and look at every departure from KMIA from today. In the route data, the first block is the SID.

For every 20 departures, how many were assigned one of these SID’s?

VACAY
BNGOS
GLADZ
TWZTR
AARPS

I won’t be surprised if it’s zero.

You can skip AA flights operated by anything other than B788/9 on short haul and anything long distance.

 

[Optical98]

Spartan

I see many posts worded with "one can clearly see"... and I think I must be blind.

But! One can clearly see:

 

[zebraso]

The guy in the video flashes a badge, wears a wedding ring, and says he’s from Penthouse 12.

So it makes more sense if he was in 8701 condo penthouse 12 even though he motions with his arm towards CTS. Was this obvious? So the upshot of his statement was he heard a sound like something "fell" - "not a big deal... thought it was something in the apartment". Then he heard what he describes as the sound of a "jet", which of course would be the collapse. Just his impression of the sounds heard from the penthouse next door without seeing what was happening?

 

[arbitraria]

You guys failed the test. It was clearly Peppa Pig

Could also have been the ample bosom of Mummy Pig, since we now know without a doubt that tatas were somehow involved. (Peppa is far too young to be sporting curves, so it had to be Mummy. Unless Daddy Pig has moobs, which seems distinctly possible.)

 

[Santos81]

So it makes more sense if he was in 8701 condo penthouse 12 even though he motions with his arm towards CTS. Was this obvious? So the upshot of his statement was he heard a sound like something "fell" - "not a big deal... thought it was something in the apartment". Then he heard what he describes as the sound of a "jet", which of course would be the collapse. Just his impression of the sounds heard from the penthouse next door without seeing what was happening?

There is only one PH at Eighty Seven Park; that is NOT the owner.

The 12th floor is the Penthouse level at CTS; UPH is the floor above.

 

[Demented]

How so? What's the peak transient force coming from a jackhammer removing old roof material that contacts bare concrete? Wouldn't that force transmit down the whole column? It would seem to me that an anchor test would at most place 5000 lbs of lateral load on the roof slab, even if one of the anchors was planted above a column.

Hopefully no jackhammering. Forces would be transmitted down though, especially where they actually did decide to go over columns.

30lb or smaller chipping hammer
15lb or smaller around rebar.
I'm still trying to find for certain which tools the roofing crew was using, but it very likely would have been a Dewalt D25103, a Dewalt DW505, or one of them new and approved Dewalt DCH273B's.

2.1-3 Joules, so well within the ballpark for the chipping hammer weight range, including the under 12lbs of the tool itself.


We also don't know how much concrete restoration work was done at this time too, which may be the reasoning why we've seen such large variation in size and location of anchor pads. GPR was supposed to be used so, fingers crossed we have that filed away. Some buffoonery happened on that roof. Yes yes, it more likely did not bring the structure down, but it still could have contributed. Who knows; we may find out that Surfside was stalling the temporary parking so that the condo association could start on the major repair that was needed ASAP all because they didn't want to ugly up the beaches during season. But then again, there could have just been an unpermitted rush to get the scaffolding in place because 3-4 months ago was the time all of the weather walls should have been going up, as they have on all the other condos getting their routine snow-birds are away maintenance.
Remember when we started passing our 3rd graders who didn't know how to read rather than holding them back a year to keep class sizes down and FCAT scores up? Florida is awesome.


@Optical98
I'm with Santos81 on this one. Though I'm under the KPBIA path instead, the planes are never ever low enough near the shores to ever be an issue. One of our permitting buldings is actually smack dab in the middle of two active run-ways, and that thing built by the lowest bidder is still a thumbs up.
Thunder gives us more shakes than planes do.

@Zebraso
Could even be a reference to the whole experience of take-off. Sound, vibrtion, you name it. Wouldn't be too farfetched for survivors to have felt a similar sensation to a passenger jet powering up.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[zebraso]

The 12th floor is the Penthouse level at CTS; UPH is the floor above.

Ok so he made it off the 12 floor. Not impossible I guess maybe he crawled down the front of the building and is an acrobat. IDK. The UK site that published the body cam footage claimed he was from next door. Maybe they saw more of the footage. Any chance he was a guest there? He claims he thought little of the first noise and then heard the loud roar. Of course he might have only been describing where he was staying and not where he was at that moment, but then he also claims he was there with his family. So where are they? This guy was not on the radar before as far as statements as a witness. There is nothing at the blue green termed penthouse I presume. My head hurts now.