Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12 60

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11

SF Charlie
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[ChiefInspectorJ]

How could the load of a slab possibly applying a cantilever moment and load to a concrete column holding up about 800kips cause a building to collapse?
The south side of the building did not collapse as the slab failed in punch shear and damaged a small area of the column.But there was a beam there tie it to another column. The pics show the column with chunks missing.
So a beam attached to M11.1 tore away from the column and left it crippled. Seismic wave propagated to the weaker columns on the upper floors and punch sheared.
The main step beam needs to be examined as this actually held up the building.
If a joint ran through it that would be the smoking gun.
Also a planter box BM A could have smashed into M11.1 and severely damaged it.
Also the video looks like the collapse starts at the top 5 floors and caused the columns to buckle.
I wonder what shape the piles are in.

 

[Nukeman948]

...there is an 8" by 12" column called out under the letter "P", that is shown to be used on floor basement thru 11th.
I'm not very familiar with the plans, but I can't find where this column is used.

Scroll up 7 pages to S7 and look at the East side of the East stairwell.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

[sup][/sup]

That 8x12 column you are looking for is gridline Column E on the "Basement Level Dimensions drawing", page 33 of 336. On that page look to where the vestibule is in the garage, and out in front of the elevators to the left you'll see the tiny columns with 8" next to them. These also appear on every other floor level page, sometimes with TC next to it, not sure what TC means

 

[ChiefInspectorJ]

Do you have pics of the main step beam and columns L,M,N?

 

[Nukeman948]

Jeff Ostroff 3 Sep 21 01:24
...not sure what TC means.

TC Could mean Trash Chute.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Those 8x12 in the middle of the lobby would not be trash chute, they are too small. The trash chutes are inline over the dumpster room

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

The only photos I have of L, M, N are in our friend Fiorella's garage video walkthrough of the Champlain Towers South last summer. In there we see the Beam between L and M, which I pointed out in our video seemed bowed.

 

[Nukeman948]

Those 8x12 in the middle of the lobby would not be trash chute, they are too small. The trash chutes are inline over the dumpster room

Those things marked TC are right next to a 30 inch diameter hole that ends at the trash room on the first floor. It looks like they are in the corners of a room that you enter to toss your trash so the trash chute opening is not right in the main corridor.

 

[ChiefInspectorJ]

Jeff without these post failure pics this case can't be solved.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

You might be right then, I got a better view of it of Morabito's plans for the 40 year certification, here is the screenshot I grabbed, and it looks like TC is indeed the trash chute. On the architect plans from 1979 that I looked at it was not drawn as clear as this drawing is.

 

[Optical98]

What are we looking for Charlie? A column by the elevators or over to the east side? Is it a smaller column, I might have a pic of it?

 

[Nukeman948]

You might be right then,

Thank you.

Page 219 of 336 screenshots of trash chute and the "P" columns Charlie asked for:

Edit to add: TC is not an abbreviation for trash chute because I see TC used in other locations on these prints. I don't know what it means.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Just be careful with this, because page 219 is the Champlain Towers North floorplan. Likely the same, but would have to spend more time looking between that and a real Champlain Towers South pages like 9/336 or page 10/336 or page 20/336, but none of those pages shows the 8x12 columns like the eengineer's drawing that I pasted above.

 

[Nukeman948]

Just be careful with this, because page 219 is the Champlain Towers North floorplan.

You are correct. Try page 29 of 336.

Edit to add: TC stands for tie column. Page 38 note 9.

 

[Spartan5]

TC stands for total collapse.

Lock it.

 

[SFCharlie]

Scroll up 7 pages to S7 and look at the East side of the East stairwell.

That 8x12 column you are looking for is gridline Column E on the "Basement Level Dimensions drawing", page 33 of 336.

Page 219 of 336 screenshots of trash chute and the "P" columns Charlie asked for:

...spend more time looking between that and a real Champlain Towers South pages like 9/336 or page 10/336 or page 20/336, but none of those pages shows the 8x12 columns like the engineer's drawing that I pasted above.
Great post!

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)Just be careful with this, because page 219 is the Champlain Towers North floorplan.
You are correct. Try page 29 of 336

Thank you all for the help!

What are we looking for Charlie? A column by the elevators or over to the east side? Is it a smaller column, I might have a pic of it?

Thank you, for your offer!
I didn't know, that's why I asked!


SF Charlie
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[SFCharlie]

O S, now I C D gofish.
Between M and N, 2 & 4...

Woo! I'm glad I wasn't a construction supervisor on this job.

 

[SFCharlie]

So... On sheet 042 of 336 – "ROOF & PENTHOUSE PLAN @ 1 8th in eq 1 ft – 0 in" of the 1979 plan the 13th floor PH is shown?

SF Charlie
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[Jeff Ostroff]

Page 42 of 336 near the elevator actually has it spelled out as Trash Chute, confirming the location of those 8"x12" columns.

 

[Nukeman948]

Page 42 of 336 near the elevator actually has it spelled out as Trash Chute, confirming the location of those 8"x12" columns.

Well yes, but actually no.
My first post on this subject had all the correct information Charlie asked for.
Your first post, after mine, was the wrong columns, then you continued to try defending incorrect information and told me to be more careful about where I found my information.
"P" columns are different from "TC" columns in the amount of rebar and concrete strength for each floor.
And here you are still defending the wrong columns.
We done?