Need an honest answer 33

[sns777]

What do you think of women engineers? Or is it impossible to make such a generalization?

I am a female engineer, 35, married with children so I work only part time, (four days a week). I sometimes feel like I do not get the big important jobs to work on and this is frustrating, personally and professionally. Granted not getting the big jobs is probably due to me working only part time rather than me being female. But I still wonder.

Also I feel my boss doesn't like working with me. Every project I have worked on with him, he transfers the job to someone else eventually (mostly male engineers, but he did once give one job to another female engineer). What gives?

A male opinion and suggestions would be appreciated. I hope I did not offend anyone. I am just trying to figure out what to do. Or is it all in my head?

 

[debodine]

a humorous aside to the speed versus completeness issue was a sign above the chair of one of my favorite production gurus, to which he would point as a way of greeting me each time I entered his office. The sign?

THERE COMES A TIME IN EVERY PROJECT WHEN YOU HAVE TO SHOOT THE ENGINEER AND START PRODUCTION!

 

[HgTX]

Zo40--better a smartass than a mouse. People think I'm a smartass too, but that's because I am. I'm sure that in some situations I'd have done better by being more diplomatic, but overall, Not Knowing My Place has gotten me pretty far.

Hg

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[IRstuff]

As with the subject of appropriate dress, there is the question of appropriate language and audience.

Since you would not speak about 3rd grade level to 1st graders, you need to know your audience and skew your message accordingly. Some people respond to humor and sarcasm and others are are simply humor-challenged.

TTFN

 

[TPNY]

HgTX,
It's encouraging to know that it is possible to benefit from being a smartass. That's good because I wasn't planning on changing my speech or attitude, anyways.

IRstuff,
You are absolutely right about talking to the level of your audience. I am a very sarcastic person, but there are some people I wouldn't dare joke around because they may take those sort of comments seriously.

 

[HgTX]

Zo40--Another thought:

You say that others are seen as "confident" while you are seen as "smartass".

There's a common complaint that the same behavior that gets men labeled as confident gets women labeled as "strident". It all has to do with what traits people expect you to have; when they're predisposed to think of you a certain way, they're more likely to do so. The flip side of that could be that in some of the cases where you might come off as "strident", a male might come off as "arrogant". In my experience, arrogance is a trait people are more prepared to see in men. I'd rather be thought of as strident than arrogant any day.


And back to a subthread from last month about who can tell what jokes to whom--at lunch today, a manager from my office wouldn't tell a joke in front of me with a naughty word in the punchline, even though I already knew the joke. So I offered to deliver the punchline myself after he told the rest of the joke, and that was acceptable. Go figure.

Hg


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[EddyC]

Some people find certain types of jokes or topics humorous while others find them offensive. It always important to know the people that you are telling them to and to know their boundaries. This issue goes beyond male and female, even though there are certain trends in speech acceptability with the genders.

 

[johnwiss]

Wow! lots of opinions. I am a male manager and have two women in my group--they are excellent and any male boss who has a problem treating women as equals needs to be gotten rid of--through human resources. I think if he is reasonable the following logic applies: Most bosses put people on projects they trust well enough to "be on the critical path" That is the enviable position where the success and failure of a project depends very highly on that individual's performance.

You can be on the critical path and not work 60 hours a week. You will have trouble being on the critical path and work much less than 30 hours/week. Four days a week should not impact anything if you are an efficient worker.

Perhaps he thinks there is a risk you will leave or cut your hours more. If that is the case it is a perception problem--point out that you consistently at work, you tend to take less PTO than full-timers, you finish your projects on-time, etc. Also tell him you will give him plenty of warning if you need to curtail hours more or are planning on leaving the company--as long as the stuff I say is true this should reassure him.

Most of all create a communication channel of trust and respect--sometimes just saying, "I want to be more challenged and follow tasks from beginning to end, rather than have to continually hand off my work to others." will do the trick.

Most people are not insecure, conniving, petty bastards waiting at every opportunity to injure others or to further their own position at the expense of others. If you think he is not one of these, then be open and honest.

John

 

[bandraoi]

If you work slow and you work part time, you're not going to be put on the critical path, no matter how good the work you do is.

 

[tmdixon]

As a woman in a project management role, I use my advantages to the fullest. If I have a "stupid" question, the guys on the shop floor are a lot more patient with me asking it than they would be if I were a male asking the same question. I'd be an idiot to not use all of the advantages there are for a woman in this type of position. Sure, I sometimes get treated as less capable than I am, but you know what? I've seen men treated the same way, so I dont see it being that big of an issue. Obviously there are men out there that have a difficult time working with women, but I have noticed there are many women who have a hard time working with other women as well. My experience is that it boils down to your willingness to learn and improve from your successes and mistakes, your knowledge base, your people skills, and doing your job well that will get you respect in the workplace...not an appendage or lack of one.

My two cents.

 

[astructurale]

I just found this thread yesterday. And to my surprise I have read the entire length of it! It has been a very interesting read. I'm a woman structural engineer. When I first started working I was very surprised to not find a lot of tension due to my being a woman (a young petite one at that time also). The men in the office usually treated me the upmost respect, and more like their "granddaughter or daughter". They taught me a lot about how to be a good engineer and detailer, and they remain my friends to this day. At the second office I worked at (for the same company) it took me 3-6months to gain the respect of all of my co-workers. They had worked with a female engineer who I found out later was their least favorite person. In time I won them over, and they came to respect me as the qualified engineer that I am. The field men were a different situation sometimes. I had to prove myself to them, and that occurs still becuase with each new project comes a new set of GC's to work with (some nicer than others).

Even so I do find myself wondering how others see me as a female engineer. I think women tend to focus more on how they are perceived by others. It's a built in thing. Women are generally speaking more "relational", which is why we also hold the valued role of being "mom". It can also make us great managers becuase we are more likely to consider the feelings and personalities of employees and co-workers. This same trait can also hold us back. Many of us won't ask for raises or toot our own horn becuase we are concerned about how we will be perceived. This is something I have struggled with. It took my last job change to really prove to me that I have real value in the workplace; reading my own resume also helped me to understand my worth.

I imagine that this is something gabbot also struggles with. I'd like to encourage you to keep a "brag folder". I keep a folder with all of my accomplishments and any written praises recieved (you could even write down spoken ones). Whenever I doubt myself I go back to that folder. My past employers were also big on self evaluation. We'd review ourselves and then meet with the boss who also completed the evaluation using the same sheet after we turned ours in. This was the hardest thing to do the first time, but it really helps you to be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. I'd also list at least three goals to work on on the self evaluation sheet.

I'd like to thank all you men who are supportive of women in the workplace. I agree most with debodine (specifically his June 6 9:57 post), which some women may find hard to do. The women's lib. movement did achieve a lot for women, but I also think they took things too far. My generation of women have a LOT to live up to. We're expected to do it all. Be a mom, a wife and a work full time, giving all three areas 100%. I never really understood it until I had my son. He's now 6months old. I'm still working, and the larger wage earner in my home, which makes it much more diffcult to go to a one income family. If it were a perfect world I would work part-time doing engineering, which I LOVE by the way. Financially it would not be a problem, but unfortunately, it is not common in my industry, and not looked highly upon either. Once you have childern women are viewed differently and this is not always the case if you are a man.

I think what I'd most like men to know is that women in engineering are here because we enjoy the work, and take pride in our work (for the most part...I know there are those women out there giving us a bad name). What's the difference if we are doing it part-time so long as we still do the job well and on time?

I wish it were more acceptable in society, for men and women, to have a better life work balance. That said I do not feel it the the goverments responsiblity to make it the law, but rather the companies to step up to the plate becuase happy employees are hard working dedicated employees.

In the meantime, I really consider myself blessed. My parents and in-laws keep my son during the day and they are both close enough to my job that I see him everyday at lunch. I also don't have an OT, and I am with a family friendly office. I'm still hoping a part-time opportunity will open up for me though, at least while my son is young.

That's more than 2cents, but you could have stopped reading if it was too long. ;-)

 

[astructurale]

One last thought, going back to HgTX's comment,

"I would not want to be in a relationship with a woman who was not capable of economically supporting herself. How would I know that she loves me for who I am rather than because she needs me to financially support her?"

I think that is a sad comment, and also a double edged sword don't you think? If a woman can support herself wouldn't that also mean she could up and leave you whenever things got tough and know she could make it without you? I definatly could if I so desired, but that is not who I am as a person.

To me marriage is sacred. It comes down to the level of committment you have. Whether the wife can support herself or not is really not the issue. Society leads you to believe that divorce is OK, but the children pay the price. What really makes a marriage is having the backbone to stick it out even when you don't feel like it, and keeping the committments you make to each other. You vow to spend your life with your spouse; you don't even promise your boss that. It's the most important committment in your life other than raising a child. Many people give that committment of unconditional love to their children easily, but have a much harder time doing so with their spouses.

Just a thought...

 

[ScottyUK]

To echo astructurale's thoughts on marriage: my grandfather once told me:

"Don't marry the girl you want to live with. Marry the one girl you can't live without."

A sentiment from a bygone age perhaps, but a nice one none the less.



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[HgTX]

'Twasn't my comment.

Hg

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[EddyC]

astructurale,

The comment about not wanting to be in a relationship with a woman who wasn't capable of supporting herself was mine (Note that I said CAPABLE, and not necessarily working full time continuously throughout life). I don't understand why you have a problem with this comment. Take a second look at some of the posts that I made. You will find that I am a supporter of women in the engineering workforce. I also have a niece (my cousin's daughter) who just graduated with a degree in Civil Engineering. I certainly want the profession of which I am a part to welcome her.

 

[astructurale]

Sorry Hg, my oops!! So many posts, I rushed a bit...

EddyC,

I did see that you are a supporter of women in engineering, and my comment regarding a woman supporting her self was not related to that issue. Please don't think that I did not notice that! I wish your neice the best of luck in her career, and commend your support of her in her endevors!

Regarding the issue of a woman being "capable" of supporting herself. I suppose it is likely that you are referring to a personality type rather than a woman showing this trait by her working, which is how I took it on first read. I do agree with one being "capable". No one wants to marry a slacker who's sole purpose in life is to have someone carry their "dead weight" around and just want you for the money. ;-) If that's what you meant, then I just read into your comment a little too far before, and I appologize. I like to think that my being a capable woman was one of the reasons my hubby married me.

 

[EddyC]

Thanks astructurale. You're right, I did mean a personality type when I said "capable". More power to you at home and in the office.

 

[bacon4life]

Having dated another engineering student throughout school, we talked about one of us taking time off when each kid was born, and one of us staying home full time at some point until the kids were in school. Then after they were in school going to 3/4th time until they were in middle school. Now since we both recently graduated and were looking for jobs, and our resumes were fairly equal, was it ethically ok not to mention to potential employers interviewing both of us which one of us planned to take between 3 months and 5 years off? It seems to me that since we were both equally qualified, it might come down to probability of which of us would work more time.

Where I work now, one of the best engineers is a woman who just switched to part time. She has always been well organized and on schedule, so while scheduling meetings can be troublesome, she is still great to work with.

 

[SomptingGuy]

bacon4life: Your post skillfully manages to hide whether you'd be the mother or father of said children. Nicely done - kind of puts the whole thread into context.

 

[astructurale]

bacon4life,
Yes, it is ethically ok not to metion that you or your spouse will be taking 3months and 5 years off. While this is your plan you do not know what the future holds for you, or who will be making the most money when the time comes. Also, you may not even still be at that same job when the time comes. You never know.

I'd like to commend the decision that you and your spouse are making regarding raising your children. I also wish you luck when the time does come to start your family!

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Hi, fans!

Interesting thread...

One thing: I don't act like Andrew Dice Clay in the office. Those who do usually end up on the wrong end of a sexual harassment lawsuit (rightly so, too). Deep inside I *might* think like Dice Man - who doesn't? anyone watch the TV shows these days? Wow! Am I ever owed an apology for my behavior in high school, because I didn't even come close to what's "normal" on TV - but I certainly leave all that out of the office.

I would caution any women engineers out there against siding with "sensitive" guys. My honestly might not make me friends, but you've been given fair warning. Those sensitive guys, on the other hand are the ones you'll discover doing things in the office to and with the women you'd never think they would... Case in point, the last President of the US and his intern...

Caveat emptor, ladies!