Need an honest answer 33

[sns777]

What do you think of women engineers? Or is it impossible to make such a generalization?

I am a female engineer, 35, married with children so I work only part time, (four days a week). I sometimes feel like I do not get the big important jobs to work on and this is frustrating, personally and professionally. Granted not getting the big jobs is probably due to me working only part time rather than me being female. But I still wonder.

Also I feel my boss doesn't like working with me. Every project I have worked on with him, he transfers the job to someone else eventually (mostly male engineers, but he did once give one job to another female engineer). What gives?

A male opinion and suggestions would be appreciated. I hope I did not offend anyone. I am just trying to figure out what to do. Or is it all in my head?

 

[EddyC]

DaveVikingPE,

I feel that the things that you stated above about women in the workforce were absolutely out of line. I find myself completely in agreement with HgTX's opinions regarding your posting. What is with you? A woman carried you inside her body for 9 months and gave birth to you (and with physical pain).

debodine,

I would not want to be in a relationship with a woman who was not capable of economically supporting herself. How would I know that she loves me for who I am rather than because she needs me to financially support her?

HgTX,

I am male and on behalf of the male gender, I offer an apology to you for the offensive comments made by my fellow males.

 

[IRstuff]

One thing interesting occurred today.

A young female engineer came to work in a sleeveless, neckless blouse and a VERY sheer floor-length skirt, but you could see that she wasn't wearing anything more than a thong.

An interesting situation:

> Dress definitely at the 1-3 sigma end, even for her
> Distracting definitely, but would that justify complaining about her dress?
> Who would normally teach her about appropriate dress for work?
> Is it appropriate dress?

TTFN

 

[HgTX]

IRStuff--

No one's visible underwear, male or female, is appropriate dress for work. And actually I'd bet she wasn't really planning for the thong to be showing. Safest for you to sic a female on her, though. Unless you can really pull off the embarrassed grandfatherly approach. ("Young lady, did you realize that...um...well...your...um...underthings are showing?")

Sleeveless & neckless...not as big a deal in my book, though I'd file it under "casual". Last I checked, shoulders weren't secondary sex characteristics. Sometimes women get to show bits (like knees) that men don't get to show. The fashion world is run by men anyway, so yez can't complain.

Visible underwear, though, nope.


But what I really came here to say is that between Greg (and others with limited patience for part-timers) and debodine, they bring up a worthy point of debate.

On the one hand, it is more difficult to work with part-timers (male or female) than with those who make themselves available more often, more regularly, more freely. It's an understandable prejudice. On the other hand, a flexible work structure (for both men and women who might want it) that supports families can be seen as a fine societal value.

I gots no quick answers. I know there are plenty of anecdotal stories about flextime, jobsharing, etc. working incredibly well, just as there are horror stories. I don't know which is more common. Is there necessarily a conflict between effective workplace and support of healthy family structure?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[IRstuff]

Well, I was trying not to be too graphic. There was a considerable amount of cleavage visible.



I'm single-parenting at the moment, so while I don't get any direct resentment for not putting in the hours, there's definitely a bit of undercurrent there. Luckily, I've got some Teflon.

TTFN

 

[kchayfie]

On my first day of my placement on site, I wore a high-necked sleeveless top. The site manager told me that the lads on site weren't allowed to wear sleeveless tops because they looked scruffy and while ladies sleeveless tends to be somewhat smarter, the rules have to apply across the board. Seemed fair enough to me.

On the other hand, in my previous job, a fellow young lady elected to wear clothes on site that I would have reserved for a night club. Her site manager was decidedly uncomfortable whenever she showed her 'T-bar pants' (thong showing over the top of trousers) and the depth of cleavage on show became the subject of a sweepstake amongst the more uncouth members of the team! It was assumed that I, as one of her peers, would have a word, but I'm ashamed to say the bitching and joking was too much fun and I did nothing. But then again, she really should have been aware how inappropriate it was.

 

[debodine]

EddyC:

Your point about not wanting to be in a relationship with a woman who cannot economically support herself is understandable, and is clearly a criterion for you in your life choices. In fact my wife had three years experience and training in the Air Force before we started having children, so she could have continued in the work force. It was our mutually agreed choice (her choice, but with my full support). So my personal situation lends support to your point.

HgTX and I have occasionally disagreed on ideas in the past. From my limited experience on this forum, I find that HgTX is very intelligent, has strong beliefs, expresses those beliefs eloquently, and is clearly capable of requesting an apology.

Therefore, may I respectfully suggest that I do not need you to apologize for me to someone else. If I have offended YOU, then you can ask me for an apology (which you will not receive in this case, because honest opinions were requested, and an honest opinion was offered).

I find myself agreeing with you, EddyC, and HgTX, and most others that post in these forums on many, many more ideas than I find myself in disagreement, both directly related to engineering and not directly related. I am more than willing to take ideas and opinions from the posts of others, learn from them, and refrain from apologizing as a third party for them when I disagree.

I will never know if any of the ideas I expressed were of value to gabbott or not, but responding to the request for honest opinions was my goal.

 

[zdas04]

I knew there was a good reason for many company's FRC (long sleeve buttoned to the neck shirt, long pants, fire retardant) clothing, steel-toed boot, and hard hat policy - there are people in the world who need boundaries.

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

 

[waskillywabbit]

"And actually I'd bet she wasn't really planning for the thong to be showing."

I would respectfully disagree. Most that I've seen in public wearing such outfits as described above knew exactly that their thong was showing. It was part of the "outfit". Most companies have dress codes for a reason, there is always someone who will push the envelope and dress inappropriately.

My wife got to stay home 2 years w/ our firstborn and a year w/ our second. FWIW, it was good for her and great for the boys. I just wish we had planned better and made better choices financially so she could have stayed at home until they started elementary school. Parenting in itself is a full-time job and working full-time too just to survive, parenting often suffers, so we have to both make a conscious effort to spend quality time w/ our boys. No one said life was easy.



Brian
Pressure Vessels and Autoclave Systems

http://www.mcabeeconstruction.com

The above comments/opinions are solely my own and not those of McAbee Construction.

 

[haggis]

At the risk of getting flak from both genders, I will comment on the situation that IRStuff encountered concerning the lady with the thong.

Dress in the workplace for females may fall into five basic categories.

1. Extremely business like. Lilith in Frazier for example.
2. Femininely attractive
3. Slightly distracting
4. Provocative.
5. Dowdy

Having said that, the individual perception of the above, especially 2, 3, and 4 is in the eye of the beholder but comments or opinions among coworkers, male or female, should be curtailed. I might add however, that over the years, I have seen female coworkers who preferred category 1 and were extremely attractive indeed. Catagories 2 and 3, well, I may be nearing 60 but I’m not yet dead. Nuff said. No.4, I think our esteemed female colleagues know where the line between 3 and 4 lies. No.5, if they are comfortable, fine.

Regardless of the circumstance, on no occasion, whether it be in the workplace, over lunch or a business dinner, should one’s personal observances of the female colleagues form regardless of dress mode, be communicated to her in any way, veiled or otherwise. Again, there are individual opinions on this and what one man sees as a seemingly harmless compliment about “looking nice in that sweater”, can only be construed as “I can’t help but notice how well endowed you are”. As I said, I’m not yet dead but such observances I keep to myself.

In conclusion, we should all welcome our female colleagues to the workplace as they have earned it, ultimately deserve it and it is our place to treat them as equals. They are after all, professionals and should have our respect as such.

 

[hiebs]

I have been following this post and it has been a great learning experience. I do agree with most that it is difficult to work with people who work part time. However, I have found that it is not because they are working part time that is causing the problem, it is not clearly communicating our expectations (on both sides) or compromising that creates tension.

I wonder how those that feel that women are doing a disservice to the engineering profession by working part time, would feel if they broke a leg, required stress leave or had a loved one pass away if they received the same sentiment. Those things all require a leave of absence followed by part time, or an erratic work schedule. Wouldn’t it be a turn of the tables if someone told you that they thought you were a detriment to the company / project for wanting to slow down your schedule and you shouldn’t be working if that’s the way you want to live your life?

No matter what you do, you have to work in situations and with people that are different from you physically, emotionally and morally. What difference does it make if it is a man or a woman? The only difference I see is that the woman is expected to bear the responsibility of raising the family, and the man is expected to work.

Gabbott, you posed a great question. I think that there are a lot of women, and perhaps some men, that wonder and question their abilities because of this issue, and I have often questioned it myself, with regards to starting a family. Unfortunately, some workplaces and people are not as flexible as others.

Hiebs

 

[haggis]

hiebs has been following this thread and has brought the focus back to gabbots question while the most of us got on our high horse and went off on a tangent including myself.

The wonder, in gabbots mind that gender is playing a part in her advancement or lack of it, is quite natural I think, considering that prejudice abounds everywhere in one form of another.

I'm quite sure that gabbot does not expect a project to be halted or even slowed because she is working only 2 or 3 days a week. She is also clearly making no rumblings about receiving preferential treatment because of gender.

 

[kchayfie]

There is friction on the jobs I am working on due to staff working to different timescales. Half of the staff are local and originally based in this office and generally work between 9 and 4 with a flexitime system in place so they can accrue hours and take days off. The other half of the team have relocated from other offices and so generally arrive Monday lunchtime, work 8 till 6 during the week and leave Friday lunchtime to go back to their homes. There are frequent snide comments from the local brigade implying the travelling brigade are part time and have a habit of arranging meetings for 9 o'clock on a Monday morning. The travelling brigade retaliate by making decisions towards the end of their day and forgetting that the locals weren't involved and not telling them what was decided.

So even people working full time can suffer the discrimination faced by people working part time.

 

[HgTX]

debodine--I have a feeling you're not the one Eddy was apologizing for.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[IRstuff]

gh^4,

Just depends. I cut my hours back to 35hr/wk to be able to get my kids to/from school, but I'm involved in more projects than I can deal with.

Obviously, it's a market demand thing. If you have what others want, they won't mind waiting in line.



TTFN

 

[debodine]

HgTX:

Point taken. You have an affinity for thinking things through, a methodology that I strive for and only sometimes achieve.

In any case, I had not previously considered EddyC's viewpoint about the economic earning potential of a life partner versus motivation to remain in a relationship, and therefore he opened my perspective. And for that, I am grateful to EddyC. Kinda ironic that my own life situation supported his point. )

haggis is correct, hiebs seeks to refocus us all on gabbott's original question. And I also agree with haggis that gabbott is showing maturity and wisdom for inquiring to improve the situation rather than grousing.

To that end, I would like to review and comment on a statement gabbott made, in the hopes of increasing her store of knowledge.

gabbott stated in her original post, "Also I feel my boss doesn't like working with me. Every project I have worked on with him, he transfers the job to someone else eventually (mostly male engineers, but he did once give one job to another female engineer). What gives?"

To which I would like to suggest: Is there any possibility that the boss considers gabbott an exceptional engineer who can start a project and get the direction and the big engineering choices right, and then he can hand off the project to perhaps less capable engineers who then do the detailed finish work that gabbott planned? This would free up the boss to put his best "starter" on the next hot project, if that is how he sees gabbott.

gabbott, is there any chance that this is the explanation?

 

[Zapster]

I believe that gabbott knows more about her problems than anyone else who posted here when she said I tend to work a little slow due to trying to be a perfectionist and I can come off as timid. Even if she worked full time, is this the type of Engineer you would give the “Big Important Jobs” to? Perhaps someone could come up with some tips about changing the Excessive-Compulsive Personality behavior that is associated with being a perfectionist.

 

[HgTX]

Coming off as timid...there's a classic female stereotype. Not to say that all women are this way or that way, but women are much more likely to come off as timid. Much more likely to use hedge words like "I think" and "maybe" even when they're sure. (It's a documented linguistic tendency. That does not mean that all women talk in this way or that no men do.)

If a woman has that kind of speech pattern but her listener is more used to the patterns more typical of men (note that I do not call them "male speech patterns"), she is all the more likely to be perceived as not really knowing what she's doing. Unfortunately, it doesn't breed much confidence.

I feel that in this case it is up to the woman to adapt her speech patterns to fit the male world she is entering, rather than having the men understand more about what those speech patterns do or don't mean.

Perhaps some assertiveness training or even public speaking training is in order? If you're seen as a kickass engineer despite your part-time status, your part-time status will be tolerated much better.


Perfectionism is another story. I work with some perfectionists. Actually, I don't work with them much. I avoid them, because if I need an answer, I can't afford to wait several weeks while they make absolutely sure. So I go to other sources instead.

That doesn't mean do a half-assed job. That means do a partial job full-assedly--what you do get done needs to be right, but maybe not to the level of detail that you'd like. Get as far as you can in the time you're expected to take, and then explain what you still need to do. Maybe you're going into more detail than you need to? Maybe there are shortcuts you can take that others can show you? Maybe there are some time-saving programs you can write for calculations, or software you can use? Or maybe you need to learn to trust your own judgement a little more and only double-check instead of quintuple-checking?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[TPNY]

I tend to be assertive and use "male speech patterns" when I talk about technical details, etc, but it is often interpreted as me being a "smart-ass" whereas my male-coworkers with the same assertiveness in their speech are "confident." What gives? (Sorry to go on another tangent, but someone brought it up)

 

[IRstuff]

Working slow is DEFINITELY a serious issue. As HgTX says, a faster "good enough" answer is more often the maximum required, sad though it may be.

From an overall perspective, THAT ALONE, may be sufficient to be limiting your opportunities now. Attention to detail is often associated with not seeing the "BIG PICTURE." This means that if I were your manager, I'd be concerned about giving you a more managerial role for fear of having you get bogged down in minutiae, instead of focusing on the the overall program goals.

If you really want to get those types of assignments, you'll need to proactive and demonstrate that you have knowledge of and understand the competing requirements of cost, technical and schedule. Once you have demonstrated your ability to adequately tradeoff those items, you should be getting more assignments in that arena.

TTFN

 

[debodine]

IR and Hg are definitely on target with their current point about speed versus completeness. For gabbott's benefit, in my experience a substantial portion of the value of an engineer to a company/project/boss/customer is their ability to distinguish which parts of a project deserve highly detailed, in-depth research and which parts deserve a less detailed amount of research.

Good judgment in this area typically results in projects where the critical issues are thoroughly considered and the desired schedule is met, assuming other factors outside the control of the engineer do not negate their efforts.

A star to both Hg and IR for their contribution.