Need an honest answer 33

[sns777]

What do you think of women engineers? Or is it impossible to make such a generalization?

I am a female engineer, 35, married with children so I work only part time, (four days a week). I sometimes feel like I do not get the big important jobs to work on and this is frustrating, personally and professionally. Granted not getting the big jobs is probably due to me working only part time rather than me being female. But I still wonder.

Also I feel my boss doesn't like working with me. Every project I have worked on with him, he transfers the job to someone else eventually (mostly male engineers, but he did once give one job to another female engineer). What gives?

A male opinion and suggestions would be appreciated. I hope I did not offend anyone. I am just trying to figure out what to do. Or is it all in my head?

 

[zdas04]

BobPE,
You are both right and wrong. A person who resents another person because the other person is better at the job that both of them do is simply the pettyness that is rife in humanity.

The manifestation of that resentment is almost never "I hate them because they are better than me" because that would make an emotionally small person feel small. Consequently, the resentment comes across as sexism, racism, or other -ism's relating to religion, national origin, etc. You'll often hear "she got my promotion because of a quota" (or an implication of sexual favors, etc.) when the person just can't admit to themself that she might have gotten the promotion because she has demonstrated superior ability.

In Oil & Gas the particular "ism" is often "shool-ism". People who didn't go to the Colorado School of Mines often complain that people have advanced because of their ties to the "Royal Academy". They won't accept that the education at Mines is a cut above most programs and the people who finish there are probably a cut more able than the run of the herd.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

 

[redgdon]

gabbott,

Heres how I see it, an Engineer, is an Engineer. be they male or female. If you work for me and you are a good Engineer, I'll tell you, If your an idiot, I'll tell you.

Perhaps your boss has a deep rooted hatred of women because he didn't get a cuddle from his mum when he hurt his finger when he was a little boy, or maybe he doesn't like you, or maybe who knows.

Life is short, and the job is hard enough without carrying the burden of resent and hatred for somebody or something.

Find a new job where your skills and talents will be appreciated, and more importantly enjoy life and your family.

 

[haggis]

EddyC wrote:

Some of the chuvinistic attitudes that I have heard expressed on this forum as well as by fellow engineers at work have no place in the USA. Those who can't handle gender equality should contemplate a move to the more barbaric parts of this planet.

I agree with you 100% and you rate a star for that, however, as a piece of wordly advice rather than an admonition, I would be careful with the "superior to the average person" attitude in most places even within the good ole U.S. of A

 

[TPNY]

Yeah for Haggis and EddyC! I just read an article on yahoo news about the controversy facing Saudi Arabian women. Currently, they are not allowed to drive and a new law that will allow them this freedom is being met with GREAT opposition. I can't imagine not being able to learn or practice as an engineer, let alone not being able to drive!!

 

[livingston]

I did specify some men have that attitude and believe me it is real. I left women out of the statement simply because in my experience most women (unless competing for the same advances) tend to support you. I don't consider the response harsh so much as bitter.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Honest answers.

I really don't like the part-timers, especially the "baby factories." Hmmm, "like" isn't the right word; "resent" - yep, that's it. I resent them because a) if they're on your project team, expect that their work isn't going to get done on time. b) if they're the project leader or manager, expect that you aren't going to get what you need. Once-a-week project meetings now will drag out into once-every-two-weeks, once-a-month, etc.

I particularly resent the bending-over-backwards management *seems* to do in their direction. I think it is discriminatory towards single people and childless people, et al. The worst offenders are the single moms who are righteous about their "situation" and, well, they are perfectly right in expecting that management will give them three months' off and thence three days a week in the office.

(To be fair: Reservist and Guardsmen who are called to duty, engineers put on long-term temporary assignments out-of-the-office, etc. are a different kettle of fish - apples and oranges, etc.)

It's really bad when you have a site visit and they have to come along... Now you're on their schedule and it is damned inconvenient if you need the team to stay an extra half hour on the site or whatever. I try (sometimes I'm successful) not to be involved with any project where a team member is working from home.

Call me sexist, male chauvanist or whatever. But my mom didn't work, she stayed home and raised three kids while my dad worked and kept the roof over our heads, food on the table, etc. My mother has a Ph.D. (though not in engineering), too. Once the kids were all out of the house in once form or another, she went back to work full-time. Is that right or wrong? I don't think we suffered from having mom at home all the time...

Regarding women engineers, as many have echoed here, just like male engineers, there are good and bad. One totally unfair advantage women have over men is that they are allowed to cry. Am I wrong, gentlemen?

I know women engineers (and non-engineers) who've cried their way out of (and into) various situations. If a guy turned on the water works because his hard drive crashed (bad example, it's ok to cry over that...) instead of cursing a blue streak, he'd lose the respect of the entire company. People will stay away from an angry man until he calms down; a crying women gets everyone's sympathy. Huge difference.

As a heterosexual man, I am genetically coded to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. In a battle of man vs. nature, nature wins. The way to beat temptation is to FLEE IT. I am far more inclined to have a decent, professional relationship with a physically unattractive (and preferably older) female engineer than with a bombshell recent engineering graduate. It's also super intimidating if the "hottie" (sorry, ladies, this is the language men may use in the company of other men) happens to be brilliant. Not only does she have the looks, but she's going to be my boss one day... Or worse, she's going to have kids and be one of those damned part-timers and I'll be stuck on a team with her. The team meetings, with her on the phone, of course, will include how she's doing, what it's like working at home, how taking care of a kid is a full-time job (duh...), etc. And if she doesn't have the hardware and software the rest of us have, we'll just e-mail back and forth.

The ultimate kicker is if she has an affair with one (or more) of my coworkers - or me. And what about the not-as-attractive female coworkers? Boy, you want resentment? You want jealousy? At least the part-timers can stay home and watch the soap opera instead of making their own in the office. Office cat-fights are not fun in the least...

You wanted honesty!

 

[HgTX]

Ya know, I've been trying to be all reasonable and logical in this thread, but screw it.

I cannot believe the kind of crap I am hearing on this thread.

"Call me sexist, male chauvanist (sic) or whatever"

Okay, you're sexist, male chauvinist, and whatever.

I suggest you go to a high school class and give a talk at career day. Better let all the girls know what's really out there. Maybe it will result in there being significantly fewer of them coming along in our particular career path to be a bother unto you.

Why is it that examples of unsatisfactory behavior on the part of women are consider ample justication for sexist attitudes toward all women, but if I were to hold up multiple examples of male incompetence or jackassery as reasons why men really ought not to be engineers, I'd be thought of as nuts?

And why is it when men find themselves distracted around women they find attractive, it's the women's fault just for having the gall to exist, rather than the men's for not having the discipline to control themselves? "Oh, poor me, I just can't control my urges." Bullhockey. Plenty of men can, quite well.

I suppose in an ideal world, there would be a panel convened at all hirings to judge whether a woman is sufficiently unattractive to be a functional team member, and she better bring along that proof of tubal ligation or menopause just to prove she ain't about to go run off to be a breeder.

You make me sick.

And angry.

And disappointed.

I really had thought things had changed since my mother's time. Apparently I've been living in a happy little world of illusion, and the attitudes of the 1960s are still with us.

I'm trying to think of something useful to get out of this thread, other than just thinking, "Jeez, there are some real %^&*ing $%^&s out there." Or "Gosh golly, I'm so goshdurn cute that I'm surely interfering with these manly men's job performance. I better just resign from engineering and spare them." The closet I can come up with to a reasonable response is to stop trusting all the men I work with, cuz for all I know they all have the same going on inside their heads as Viking, and they're all just gritting their teeth and barely tolerating me.

But that doesn't sound like a very productive path for me to take, so what good is this thread doing me, or anyone?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[HgTX]

"closet" should be "closest", of course. "Closet" brings in yet another set of issues...

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[GregLocock]

Star for that Hg, nice to see some logic. However, I do have a real problem with some 3 day a week part timers, from both sexes. I also have problems with 5 day a week full timers of both sexes. I guess I'm just an equal opportunities grump.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[IRstuff]

Wow, I'm surprised that we aren't tripping over people uncontrollably having sex in the office every day!

So much for civilized behavior, Ten Commandments and the law...

Apparently, some people are genetically coded for a couple of other things as well...

TTFN

 

[TPNY]

WOW, IRstuff!! You just went out and said it! A star for you! I thought copulating in public places was for high school students (like in the bathrooms and behind the band building)!
And thank you, Mr. DaveVikingPE for your honest answer. I'll have to watch out for guys like you...

 

[debodine]

DaveVikingPE:

Brutally honest, and obviously not what people want to hear. Another brutally honest truth, that people do not want to hear.

World War II revamped the USA economy entirely. Women entered the workforce in droves to backfill for all the men who had to leave their jobs for military service. This allowed America's industrial might to have an overwhelming effect in favor of the Allies.

However, after World War II was over, the workforce did not return to it's prewar mix of the sexes. And families suffered in direct proportion to the absence of the mother from the home nest.

One direct result of this (although the absence of women in the home was certainly not the only cause), was the drop-out culture of the 60's where cultural values were turned topsy-turvy in a hedonistic search via drugs and sex for fulfillment. About the only good thing that came from that time was that the nation finally came to grips with the need to stop making blacks second class citizens.

But the bottom line is, women absent from the home hurt the nation, and sadly, hurt women as well. From this came the feminist movement which has consistently attempted to destroy marriage and family, a backbone of our culture and our nation.

I believe it is a natural instinct for a mother to want to be with her children (and I applaud those who do), and I believe that some women today answer that instinct by asking for part-time instead of full time. The downside is that some managers will not give critical projects to part time workers, which I believe was one of the original issues in this forum.

If the higher goal of our culture is "woman empowerment", then our culture is on the right track. In my personal opinion, I do not believe that should be our higher goal. Preservation of the family should take precedence, and no human being in the world can have a greater or longer lasting positive effect on any nation than a woman and mother showing her children how to live.

The man has his responsibilities as well, and just as important, to the family. HgTX clearly indicated one of them when he ridiculed men who "cannot get their brains above their belt" in the workplace. But the most critical is to provide an environment where the family is safe, nurtured and prepared for. Tough to do when the entire economy is now geared (mostly through taxation) to at least a two (or more) income family.

 

[TPNY]

I definitely applaud those women who stay at home with their families and the husbands who work very hard to support them all.

BUT...

...for those smart women engineers who may or may not have families or husbands (for whatever reason), it is not ANY person's business to treat them unfairly, or withold promotions, projects, etc. because they believe that the woman should stay in the home instead. Personally, if I had the privledge of mothering children, I would want to stay home with them if possible, but right now, I would appreciate equal and fair opportunities proportional to my abilities. It is unfair for women to unjustly play the "sexist" card, but it is also unfair for men to play the "corruption of society due to the absense of mothers in the home" card!

 

[haggis]

DaveViking wrote:

I am far more inclined to have a decent, professional relationship with a physically unattractive (and preferably older) female engineer than with a bombshell recent engineering graduate.

The ultimate kicker is if she has an affair with one (or more) of my coworkers - or me.

Let me ask, is there something wrong with you? Don't you trust yourself because of your neandrathal thinking, and then your next thought is that she might be partial to laying prone on the boardroom table. Or is that just wishful thinking on your part?.

Then after spouting about the backbone of our culture and nation, moral fibre etc., debodine writes:

About the only good thing that came from that time (the sixties) was that the nation finally came to grips with the need to stop making blacks second class citizens..

Look around. That has not yet been fully accomplished and probably never will be. Pity the focus of this was not aimed at women also. They might have been a little further ahead than they are today.

All gabbot asked was a simple question

 

[BobPE]

And all this time I thought Dinosaurs were extinct....


Bob

 

[debodine]

haggis:

You are correct...all gabbott asked was a question, though you and I might disagree on its simplicity. To assist gabbott in sorting out what things of value to take from this forum and which things to reject, I offered a "big picture" theory of the last few decades of cultural change. It is my belief that this would provide background that can explain what gabbott is experiencing at work with regard to important projects. Whether gabbott finds anything of value in my theory or not, I offered it for gabbott's benefit.

Zo40:

You have excellent communication skills. You first found an area of agreement with my ideas (to establish positive communication) and then you clearly, concisely, and intelligently stated your reasons for what you believe and also strongly established where you believe I am wrong. And you made me think about a point of view I had not considered. Bravo! My respect for you has certainly increased.

 

[IRstuff]

For the most part, the mother-at-home concept is mostly a myth with respect to urbanites.

Until child labor laws were passed at the turn of the last century, children and mothers were often sent out to work to make ends meet.

Even on the farm, children were sent out to work in the fields whenever additional workers were needed. Old stories abound, about mothers giving birth in the fields.

The whole concept of child coming home to a mother waiting with cookies and a glass of milk seems to me to be wholly a creation of 1950's TV.

TTFN

 

[debodine]

Excellent point, IRstuff. Throughout society from ancient times (usually an agrarian society) in fact the father, mother and children often worked together in the family business, whether farming or otherwise.

Fathers AND mothers were often both available to pass on values and teach skills and interpersonal relationships to the children. Specifically speaking about the US, we lost the father's close proximity when the industrial age arrived, and the mother's close proximity when World War II arrived.

In both cases, I believe our society lost something of value, and the losers were the children.

I have raised my children (27, 25 and 21) now and can't go back. But the few years I was able to work from my home while my wife homeschooled were the happiest and most beneficial to our children that we can recall. And our children have stated that same idea to us, on several occasions.

If I had the power to go back, I would have developed some type of business that kept me at home with my family permanently. But we were most fortunate that my wife was able to stay home, by her own desire and choice.

 

[nad3ooo]

i try to lump everyone in to one 'stupid-people pool' with a hierarchy of smaller 'stupid-people pools' within...

prejudice can be a powerful thing, as long as you deal it out with an even hand...once you get everyone on the same level of incompentency, the cream really rises to the top...no matter what color, shape, or gender, the smart ones you notice right off...

as far as women getting to work part time to take care of kids, i'd like to work part time and take care of my golf game and sharpen up my alcohol tolerance...maybe spend a little MORE time at Hooters(restaurant)...


am i management material or what?


nad3ooo

 

[IRstuff]

But, I think there is a difference between having working parents and the no-longer PC term "quality time."

If working fathers were, and are, able to perform their fatherly duties to their offspring, then, likewise, working mothers should also be able to do so.

The difference is "quality time." Too many people work longer than 8 hrs, bring their work home with them, or come home and vegetate watching sports or other TV. Too many parents expect schools to teach everything to their children. Too many parents don't spend enough time telling their children that they love them.

TTFN