Need an honest answer 33

[sns777]

What do you think of women engineers? Or is it impossible to make such a generalization?

I am a female engineer, 35, married with children so I work only part time, (four days a week). I sometimes feel like I do not get the big important jobs to work on and this is frustrating, personally and professionally. Granted not getting the big jobs is probably due to me working only part time rather than me being female. But I still wonder.

Also I feel my boss doesn't like working with me. Every project I have worked on with him, he transfers the job to someone else eventually (mostly male engineers, but he did once give one job to another female engineer). What gives?

A male opinion and suggestions would be appreciated. I hope I did not offend anyone. I am just trying to figure out what to do. Or is it all in my head?

 

[ScottyUK]

gabbott,

If you're worried about being seen as a dumb blonde, dye your hair dark. Artificial Intelligence!

Have I actually managed an entire post without a typo? I'll award myself a medal. My previous posts are a literary disgrace.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[EddyC]

gabbott,

I would prefer that you remain an engineer and not leave due to chuvinistic behavior on the part of some of the people that you meet. As the years go by the "neanderthals" will be weeded out of engineering as well as society. It just takes time.

Although I am male, engineers in general are not thought of very highly in American society. They are generally thought of as "nerds" and "geeks". If you can sing and posture on a record cover with a gun, you are "cool", but if you can design something that makes the world a better place, that doesn't count for much. It would be the gun brandishing singer (or athlete or actor or etc.) who would get invited to the party, rather than the engineer. As an engineer, I think that society is upside down in who they view as heros.

 

[IRstuff]

As a mentioned before, my 11-yr old was watching a Barney episode about careers, which was extremely gender-typed. So, it'll be at least a few more generations before everything gets normalized.

The recent to-do about combat roles for women typifies the current situation pretty well.

TTFN

 

[BobPE]

gabbot:

I have been given paper bags a few times by people and was told to put my clues in the bags when I find them.....

I have to prove myself every 5 minutes it seems.

When I walk into a room it gets quiet too, and I take advantage of that silence to take over and manage.

I have often said screw engineering and it was misplaced anger. What I really needed was a change of scenery and changed jobs.

There are neandertals and fem-nazzis in every place of employment...don't be either and look down on them all....We as engineers are above all that and those that are not, we don't want up here with the rest.

Bob

 

[Zapster]

I have been called a Neanderthal by closed minded individuals. These name callers believe that society should reflect their views and only their views. Somehow these self-righteous individuals believe that only their opinions are pure and correct.

All people are not equal. It may be difficult if not impossible to find any two people who are equal. This fact I acknowledged in grade school during the first spelling bee that I had to participate in. I just wish there was a math bee where I could have been highly competitive.

Males on average have a biological advantage with spatial tasks (especially mental rotation), throwing accuracy, and mathematical reasoning.

Females on average have a biological advantage with verbal memory, and object locations in an array, and some fine motor skills.

Hence, males and females on average are not equal. One group is not better than the other, they are different. All the politically correctness of modern society will not change the biological tendencies of the two sexes. What political correctness does with its associated affirmative action programs is to try to redistribute social positions based on racial and sexual statistics. This results in a mismatch of skills and tasks. I see universities struggling for ethic and sexual diversity within their degreed programs, where affirmative actions are more important than academic excellence. I see our government hiring practices trying to maintain some statistical base for ethnic and sexual diversity.

Is it any wonder that when someone sees a female engineer that they wonder if she meets the industry standard or the affirmative action standard?

 

[HgTX]

Why the hell do you even need to wonder, when you meet someone who's in an EEO-protected group, which standard they met? Either they are competent or they aren't, and if you can't judge that for yourself then you aren't competent either. Affirmative action might be one of many possible reasons why someone you already know to be incompetent is able to keep their position, but it is certainly no reason to assume a priori that anyone in that group is incompetent. Making generalizations of that sort is lazy at best, and can be quite harmful.

I've met precisely ONE female engineer who seemed like a case of affirmative action overriding ability, and the only reason I even say that is because she rose higher than any of the incompetent males I know. Most cases of incompetence I've run into can't be blamed on affirmative action. What does that say about the cases that *might* be blamed on AA? That maybe those cases, too, were due to the various other factors.

When you cite biological differences, you are essentially telling female engineers, "What are you complaining about? You don't really belong here anyway." Keep in mind that the differences people like to point to are trends, no more, and they only account for SOME of the statistical underrepresentation of certain groups. There are lots of people who don't fit with the supposed division of skills, and societal pressures FAR outweigh any biological differences.



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[Zapster]

The intention of my previous post was to point out and document that it is incorrect to believe that people are equal. The same can be said about engineers. This perspective opposes kchayfie’s statement:
the rest are mostly able to at least pretend we're all equal - and some of them even believe it!”

HgTX, I do not have the skill to determine if someone is competent when I meet them. I need to work with an engineer for several projects to determine whether they are competent. Competency cannot be solely equated to being knowledgeable. An engineer who is knowledgeable and accurate is worthless to me if they cannot meet project deadlines. I would call them incompetent if they can’t make the deadlines. HgTX, you stated:
when you meet someone who's in an EEO-protected group, which standard they met? Either they are competent or they aren't, and if you can't judge that for yourself then you aren't competent either.
As such, by your statement above, it would make me incompetent if I could not tell someone’s competency after meeting them. Seem like you like to prejudge people before you meet them.

gabbott, in my first post item 2 indicated that you may not be qualified for the big important jobs. To be honest, I have never known an incompetent person that recognized their own lack of ability. I am not saying that you are incompetent; however, I am saying that if you were, you would probable not recognize it. If I was incompetent, I doubt that I could tell. I assume that I am competent only because I still have clients that keep calling on my skills. Take a look at the following link regarding people’s ability to judge their competency:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL

 

[MikeHalloran]

I too miss the days when I could tell you the good jokes.

Things change.



Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

 

[HgTX]

In theory, if you can't tell us the good jokes, you shouldn't be telling each other the good jokes either. If it's that offensive, then it shouldn't be told in the workplace, period. Wait till later and then tell it to anyone who'd be interested.

There are people one can joke with, and people one can't. It doesn't take very long to tell which kind of person one is dealing with.

It comes down to personality more than gender. There are men I can't swear in front of. (And by "swear", I mean words like "hell" and "crap", not the kind of words I could bet written up for using in the workplace at all.) They get very upset. And to back up a couple of topics, then they lecture me about how a nice young lady shouldn't talk like that, and do not even try to tell me they're just taking that attitude because of Eevul HR, because you know damn well they wouldn't say anything of the sort to a nice young gentleman.

Hg

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[MikeHalloran]

I'm guessing that you haven't had a serious run-in with HR yet.

By serious, I mean, you lose your job, but that's just the beginning. Would you believe that a vested pension can disappear? Would you believe that HR would fabricate and disseminate flat-out lies about you? Would you believe ... well, you wouldn't, and for your sake I hope you never do.

No, you can't always tell who is not going to take a joke well. I swear there are people who lie in wait for you to say something 'wrong', and supplement their income by complaining to HR.

You can swear in front of me if you like. Sometimes adjectives need turbocharging.



Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

 

[kchayfie]

Zapster,
when I said we were equal, I meant of equal value within the workplace as opposed to clones of each other. Obviously it is necessary to play to each person's strengths but fitting a gender stereotype is not a strength of mine. Just as I wouldn't expect an electrical engineer to complete the structural design of a building (although if he can its a bonus), I wouldn't expect an engineer who happened to be female to be working on the job because of affirmative action and really only there to make the coffee.

 

[HgTX]

"Would you believe that HR would fabricate and disseminate flat-out lies about you?"

Yes, I would. The false sexual harrassment case I know the most about at my workplace was filed by a man against a women, actually.

Zapster--
It's possible to tell whether someone's a complete incompetent even if you don't share their field of expertise. It's called a BS Meter, and mine gets a regular workout--more around men than around women.

Ya wanna talk sex-linked behavioral differences? Well-established societal values like machismo and similar concepts lead to men being much more likely to fake it even when they don't really know what they're talking about. Making things up if they don't know the answer, stating opinion as fact, sounding completely confident when in fact they're just making an educated guess, etc., while on the other hand women have a documented tendency to hedge with phrases like "I think" or "maybe" even when they really do know what they're talking about.

If you can make the following argument:

1. Women are inherently less qualified than men to be engineers (statistically speaking, natch, no offense intended to any present parties, yadda yadda).
2. Thus any attempt to remedy statistical underrepresentation will likely result in underqualified women cluttering up the workplace.
3. Hence the abilities of all female engineers must be in doubt, while the default for men is competent unless proven otherwise.

then surely I can make this argument:

1. Men are more likely to bluff than women are.
2. Thus I must trust what comes out of *all* men's mouths much less than what comes out of women's.
3. And I should generally assume that nothing a man says is reliable. Just to be on the safe side, you know. But I should meanwhile give women the benefit of the doubt, since I have no particular reason not to.

Somehow, though, I don't feel compelled to make such a generalization. Guess I'm just not looking as hard for excuses to disparage men as some people seem to be looking for reasons to think poorly of women.

I am surrounded by No Shortage Of Male Incompetence. What does this mean? It means that affirmative action is hardly the prime source of professional incompetence in modern society, and that even female incompetence could be due to the same myriad reasons as male incompetence, plus just that one little extra possible source. Put it in perspective, and the small influence of affirmative action in light of all the other ways jackasses wind up in positions they should have really doesn't count for much. Hardly worthy of a basis for condemnation of an entire sex.

Unless you're looking for a reason to condemn an entire sex. Then it's pretty handy.

Hg

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[TPNY]

I am greatly relieved to see the men in this forum (particularly HgTX) putting the gender situation in perspective!

One thing I feel I should point out: another part of statistics (besides averages) is deviation from the mean. Don't forget that for all of the untechnically minded females, there are as many on the other side of the spectrum. Hopefully the universities were able to guide those men and women who were not compatible with the engineering profession into something better suited... HaHaHa! I make myself laugh sometimes!

 

[zdas04]

zo40,
I guess men aren't the only insensitive creatures in the profession. Look back a few posts to:

To Zo40: I could lose my NOW card over this, but there are worse things than being thought of as cute, as long as they still do what you say. (Likewise with the whole "honey/sweetie" thing--"Honey, how many holes do you want dug and how deep do you want them?" gets me the holes dug just fine and quite possibly faster.) In the right environment it can even be useful--guys are less likely to get confrontational with someone who reminds them of their little niece. For every guy who thinks he can push women around, there's another who has a full arsenal of bullying tactics he's used to using on males but can't bring himself to use on women.

Hg

and ask yourself if HgTX will appreaciate

I am greatly relieved to see the men in this forum (particularly HgTX) putting the gender situation in perspective!

.

David

 

[HgTX]

http://www.epatric.com/funstuff/dog/

When there's no body on hand to prejudge the mind by...

Hg

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[EddyC]

Come on folks, lets act a little more civilized. The human race is comprised of both males & females. We need each other. My niece is graduating shortly with a degree in engineering. I fully expect that she will be welcomed into the profession. Shame on those who intend otherwise. Engineers are suposed to be intellectuals who are superior to the average person. Some of the chuvinistic attitudes that I have heard expressed on this forum as well as by fellow engineers at work have no place in the USA. Those who can't handle gender equality should contemplate a move to the more barbaric parts of this planet.

 

[SolderingGunslinger]

The human race is comprised of both males & females.

"It is true that there is very little difference between men and women, but Viva Le Difference!"--Voltaire

Engineers are suposed to be intellectuals who are superior to the average person.

The same goes for Priests...'nuff said.

My niece is graduating shortly with a degree in engineering. I fully expect that she will be welcomed into the profession.

Good for her! What's her dicipline? I am not in the position to hire anyone right now, but I think she'd get along OK in our shop...our problem is getting a qualified female to apply for an Engineering position.

I remain,

The Old Soldering Gunslinger

 

[AndrewTX]

I did not read all the responses, just the original questions. I've worked with some fantastically talented female engineers over the 13 years I've been in the oil and gas and refinery business.

I have also seen the bad treatment of female engineers you mention. In my experience, that was limited to a couple very older (one was 70) supervisors, and one who came from a culture that had differing views on women.

One thing I have noticed in the three companies I've worked for is that there are almost no senior female engineers. It is almost impossible to find a female engineer still working in the technical positions with 15 or 20 years experience. Uusally, I've seen a lot of the female engineers leave engineering for technical sales positions, or just leave engineering all together. That is also why I have only seen one female engineering manager in 13 years.

 

[livingston]

After a female gets pats on the head when she has a good idea (or that idea magically appears in someone else's mouth) for 15 years, I imagine she would be looking for the exit sign. Personally, I have hung on for 8 years out of sheer stubborness and refusing to give in to those who feel women shouldn't be engineers. It doesn't matter how good you are at your job to some people. The better you are the more some men resent you.

 

[BobPE]

Wow livingston, that is a strong point of view. I would argue with your statement "The better you are the more some men resent you." and change that to The better you are the more people resent you. It is a shame you feel the need to make that statement with a sexist connotation. I struggle with men and women that resent me because I am a good engineer. It is part of the business. Associating this resentment to sex, creed, race, national origin, etc or anything else that has nothing to do with you as an engineer is a sign op weakness and maybe people are exploiting this weakness with you.

Bob