New start material strenght calculation for operating horn from crashed plane. Part 2 4

[RedSnake]

Can anyone help me check if this calculation works so far?
There are so many conversions between different units ..
The calculation is made by a free software but I assume that their calculation models are correct.

My own assumption is that the elevator is heavier at the front edge as there are hinges made of MIL 1430 N and since the lever and its attachment also are , there are also steel details on the other side and the rest is aluminum.
I have chosen to see it as a simple bar to begin with.

And the calculation is made to check which load the fixed joint must withstand for the elevator's own weight.

I intend to present it in steps so if I got something wrong I can adjust it before the next step.
If it's okay with you people?

Best regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

it will never be completely proven to criminal evidence requirements but that's not what the primary goal of an aviation accident investigation.
The primary goal is to limit if not stop a recurrence of a fatal even t with the same cause.

I know you are right about the purpose of the report.

But I probably have a work injury after working with German made machines for 32 years ..
Nothing is fuzzy there! as in the SHK report. :-(

That is why I can work from home and make instructions for adjusting the proptional valve, for the pumps.
Now when the mecanics are going to change one on Thursday. The adjustment is electrical though.

Personally, I'm probably too much of a helicopter parent to my colleges and too honest for my own good, it makes me end up in all sorts of trouble.
In Sweden you can not be better than anyone else and absolutely not say it, and if you are a woman even worse.
But I'm tired of being what everyone else wants me to be.
All I want, is to do what I'm good at and not beat about around the bush.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

Its why I love the country. A child travelling to her grandma in sveg is dealt with....
I would never put a kid in a car in the UK with two male crew. In Sweden we would load her up take her to MacDonald's and then when we delivered her home we would be fed and stuck in the sauna and get the money for her Mac'D's. Mind your own F'ing business this a none story.

LOL Yes that's exactly right.

Yes, we are probably a very trusting people, but we have not had many reasons not to be.
Especially when you get a little in or up in the country.
You would not manage here, when it is so far to everything.
If you did not help each other.
Then you probably get a little more sociable too ;-)
When there are not so many to hang out with.
It probably comes from the time when horse sledges were used.
If you went on a mission in minus 30 degrees for 50 km.
Then it was important to get food and be warm enough before setting off back home.
Getting news from other parts was probably important as well.
So I guess we still do it

And there was no nobility in northern Sweden either, so I think people here have been more equal, so it has not been so much bowing and scratching, so we may not have learned to make a difference between people.

Someone asked if people normally trust strangers or not.
The answer was that all people trust strangers or those you know, until they give you a reason not to
Maybe we see people more as individuals than as groups of people, what do I know ..
Everybody gets the same first chance here.

Speaking of the kids..
We have a TV gala every year to raise money for the children of the world, this year we have raised SEK 60,700,000 SEK
So we not only take care of our own children, we also try to help children around the world.
Of course, it happens that children are not taken care of or get hurt here as well, but there are always major investigations into what went wrong, especially if the authorities made mistakes, so that they do not do them again.

Best regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

Great military secret I guess, so I have not asked..

Especially for surveillance radars, the radar broadcasts that information (and more) continuously at high power. It all stops being a secret about a minute after you turn the thing on for the first time.

In order for these hits to be connected, must they be at about the same height as well? Or at the same height as the plane was?

No: All of these radars with antennae that look like a bar spinning about a vertical axis produce a beam pattern that looks a bit like an old-fashioned ladies' fan held out in front of them with the edge in the vertical plane. They illuminate a slice of sky that covers a narrow band of azimuth, but quite a wide angle of elevation. Anything that sits in that beam, regardless of altitude gets a more or less equal chance of getting detected and a simple primary radar with that sort of pattern won't really know what altitude the target is at.

Does that mean that the three odd echoes might be from something that fell off the aircraft before it made that sharp turn and which fell for a while before the primary radar picked it up some time later during its descent? I wondered that, but I'm not convinced.

First, some assumptions:

I'm going to assume that, although the primary radar (by definition) wasn't getting any data from the aircraft, it would have been logging the arrival time of each echo (it has to, in order to process and plot tracks).

I'm going to assume (but this is something that could be confirmed) that SHK have taken the arrival time of the first of those three echoes and interpolated between the MSSR timestamps to come up with their statement about the echoes coming from when the aircraft was at 3000m (so at about 12:07:28Z) - which is why I think those three echoes appeared 35s after the aircraft passed that spot. That in itself isn't impossible. It wouldn't be unreasonable for an object to have fallen 2000m in that time, which would still give it time to generate another couple of echoes - even assuming the slowest possible scan rate for the primary radar.

I'm going to assume from the way the orange track is painted that the first of those three echoes is the one at the North East end and that whatever created the echoes was moving slowly South Westward. I think if it was the other way round, the next point on the track, off the bottom of the page would never have been assigned to the same track.

I'm struggling to work out how fast the primary radar scanner was turning. The secondary radar is generating ticks on the blue line at nicely data-stamped four second intervals and there are a few places where you can compare those with points on the adjacent red track to infer a primary radar sweep time of 7 seconds. It's just that at around 12:06:22Z, there's a couple of points on the red plot much closer together. I suspect that's a geometrical effect and that both those points were picked up on the same sweep, but I can't be sure. Either way, there is good evidence that the primary radar sweep time is no longer than seven seconds.

Now lets go back to those three strange echoes. They're in a straightish line, with a spacing of about 70m between each. If you take a maximum 7s time interval between each, this implies something travelling south westward at a minimum of 10 m/s. This is a bit slower than the 15 m/s you'd expect from something being carried by the reported wind (and the direction isn't really right either). But now consider where an object with that trajectory would have had to have started out 35 seconds earlier. That would put it some 350m to the North East of the aircraft at its closest approach at 12:06:53Z - somewhere over the residential road on the East side of the river - which just seems a bit far off to me. If the primary radar scan rate was higher, that point of origin moves even further away.

So there isn't really any strong evidence that those three echoes are something that fell off the aircraft at about 12:06:53Z, but it would be difficult to prove conclusively that it absolutely didn't happen - which I guess is why SHK hesitated a bit when pushed.

A.

 

[RedSnake]

I still think you're a little modest when you say you do not know anything about this ;-)

That the primary radar track is so elongated tho the north wy is that ?

My guess is that it's here.. could it be ?

Anna long after bedtime..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its a feature of the chart type and trying to give a visualisation of 3D movement on a 2D surface. Its more pronounced at higher latitudes travelling 090 or 270. 360 or 180 you won't see anything. The path of least distance between two places on a sphere is a thing called a great circle which the distances involved here it won't come into any noticeable changes of heading in this case but it might appear when you google the subject.

Basically to get a 2D surface the scale changes as you travel from south to north.

There are 3 different types of chart in general use depending on how large the scale is your using and if your in the polar regions. EU is on the good side of the sphere in regards to magnetic variation so we don't have to use anything fancy.

This one will be a Mercator Projection chart.

I really don't know much about radar apart from what I have heard from ATC mates. Especially the older ones have, because they needed it, a quite extensive knowledge about not only the theory but also about the unit that they were trying to interpret the data off. I do find it interesting chatting about it. But as far as I can tell most questions of any technical content start you down a huge path of required knowledge about EM propagation in atmospheric conditions, data processing, analogue filters, digital filters... I am sure you get my drift. The newly qualified ATCO's just don't have the experience that requires the knowledge. Some of the story's about smoke filled rooms looking at green displays with chinagraph marks on them to try and work out if it was a hard contact or not are awe inspiring. A lot of them have poor eyesight and cataracts now due to the displays used and the power they had them set at and going to near the heads while they were emitting. I don't know how true this is but even with the power off and locked in the power room it still took a period of time for nothing to be emitted. And they always needed to do something quickly and would never wait.

I don't go near the aircraft radar during walk round to be honest even though I know that there are I think 3 interlocks to prevent them being on while on stand. But better safe than sorry. The maint guys used to make fluorescing light tubes go on in there hands not connected to anything with the Jetstream radar. After the first time seeing it and saying it really wasn't a sensible thing to do I kept well away from the radar units. MOdern units do all sorts of stuff that the older ones didn't the A220 has doppler on it for ground speed and windshear warnings. Its basically on from the moment the wheels leave the ground until the moment it touches down. We can turn it on before that but one of the interlocks is the parking brake. And also it has some ground sensing logic which brings the power output way down compared to up high.

I must admit if I was to speak to my older ATCO mates about this I suspect their first question would be "where are the nearest windfarms?." they produce all sorts of weird and wonderful effects on primary radar. I don't know if these effects could be an issues at 13000 ft or not. Primary radar is expensive, labour intensive to keep running, in the civilian world they have been getting rid of it progressively for the last 20 odd years. And even secondary they are going towards the aircraft broadcasting its information which is provided by the Navigation system. You can basically cover the whole of Scandinavia with 5 receivers of all traffic over 20 000ft. 5 boxes connected to 5 computers and a secure fibre link to the local data centre which then connects to the other data centres and an area traffic situation is produced which is then fed out to where ever they need the information. There is a cross over into the internet side of things so airline ops gets a feed as well. They do something I believe with that data so it can't be used to target aircraft but for airline ops having a +-10 min error in position isn't an issue.

ATC = Air traffic control.

ATCO = Air traffic control officer ie the person we speak to on the radio who gives us headings and separates us from other aircraft using the data from the radar.

 

[RedSnake]

The maint guys used to make fluorescing light tubes go on in there hands not connected to anything with the Jetstream radar.

That phenomenon can occur around all powerful power sources as well.
It is the magnetic field that causes the atoms in the gas in the tube to begin to collide with each other and flourish.
You can get it in unconnected cables that are pulled with other cables that are powered, it does not take much to induce current in an unconnected cable, an acquaintance of mine got a shock and was about to fall down from a ladder when he was going to tear old cable of a cable ladder from such an unconnected cable. But it went well.
It is also used in Cern to detect when something interesting has happened in the accelerator.
An uncharged particle that is very heavy hits atoms in a tube that starts moving as it is then detected, then they know that they must save the results for analysis.
(The beam that goes out at 11:55 in the picture, the light blue ones are gas filled tubes)

I suspect their first question would be "where are the nearest windfarms?

Red cross wind turbine..

Could this be the radar ?? In that case, I guessed right before

And even secondary they are going towards the aircraft broadcasting its information which is provided by the Navigation system.

I am not sure that would work for the military ;-) The russians are already flying with there transponders of.
Incidents occur and there is a lot of arguing with the Russians about Russian planes that just pop up out of nowhere.

And thank you Alistair for clarifying the abbreviations

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The military do what they do. My comments are only directed at civilian operations.

As I said above I know windfarms create issues, quiet what those issues are and how high up they may occur I have no clue.

If its all the same to you I will just avoid being near radar heads unless I really have to even if they are off. The Jetstream was a 40 odd year old design and used guide tubes to do its radar stuff. They use to turn it on and leave it to cook the nose cone to get water out of the glass fibre.

 

[RedSnake]

If its all the same to you

No it's not LOL take care of yourself.
You should not wear rings, bracelets and chains or other metal objects that can be affected by strong magnetic fields either if you are around them, you can get burns, if current is induced in such objects that you are wearing.
But it would take a lot like a transformer station that sort.
That thing sounds more like a microwave own , stay away! thats a good strategi..
Be careful ;-)

That is why I have a wristwatch made of high tech. ceramics.

MVH A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Shouldn't wear them anyway near aircraft. I have seen someone jump out of an aircraft hold and they hit the ground, their wedding ring and finger stayed in the hold attached to door locking bracket.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Just had a look at the wavelengths involved. Normal domestic microwave is 12 cm..

Radar units depending what they are doing use these wavelengths

https://www.everythingweather.com/weather-radar/bands.shtml

So basically yes it is a microwave oven.

 

[RedSnake]

I was really just guessing
But with a lot of knowledge, you are more often lucky with that.
I guess. ;-)

So it's best if you stay away from it.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

windshear warnings

Can you expain what it is..pleace.

It's just that at around 12:06:22Z, there's a couple of points on the red plot much closer together.

The plane loost about 15 m in heght just about there, could it be it ?
It is about 6 seconds after he finished the climb to get over the cumulus/nimbus cloud, so I wouldsay he was on top or passing over it. Could it have something to do with that?

What is it like to fly over such a cloud in such a small plane? Anyone who knows ?

It actually my name day to day, so I bought myself som flowers.
In fact, my mother also received flowers today from a young man who was moving out of the house, because she hade been so welcoming and helpful when he moved in.

Maybe someone from the outside is needed to see such things, we are so used to it, we do not think about it much

Best Regards from Anna, on the Anna day..

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Your more likely to go up if you fly over a CU than down. The air goes in a circle round them. Its only when they are disapating that the air starts going down but by that point the top of it is 30-40 000ft.

It no problem done it many times in a smaller aircraft 2 seats PA38.

Wind shear is an abrupt change in wind strength or of direction. The its effect is linked to the momentum of the aircraft the more momentum the more susceptible you are to it. You do get wind shear with Jetstream's of air and there is one in that area but its much higher up.

50ft (15m) when flying manually is not even an altitude bust when flying in controlled airspace on instruments. The limit is +- 100ft. Visual flight rules its +-250 ft I think, Its been that long since I flew under visual rules.

 

[RedSnake]

Yes the CP sade so to..
I guess a radar would most likely get 2 hits as close if the plane flew in the same direction as the radar swept.
Then it should more likely be in the north east .. south west.

There is not much else up there.
A sea eagle can at best reach 2500m on a good day in June / July.
I was thinking of a drone, but I rejected it, because I thought they did not have that much radio range.
Now realized that there are those who have up to 10,000 m.
But why would anyone would fly with one, in that weather I do not know, they are quite expensive if they can handle that distance.
But they can fly both fast and slow and hover.

My radar was acctually a lighthouse it isn't used anymore. LOL .
But I have a new candidate But not in the norht east..south west.

Do not know if you told me if you get any pressure on the elevator when you make a climb..

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

none what's so ever if you trimmed. You apply more power and don't touch a thing and up she goes. Take the power off and you descend. If you change speed that's when you apply pressure.

 

[RedSnake]

Okey Tanks..

I have traveled a lot in Europe, I think most people are very friendly and helpful if you ask for help.
The only place that really stood out was actually Edinburg, we probably had not been stading on the sidewalk for more than a half minute and trying to figure out how to find the hotel, before some one stopped and asked if they could help
It happened several times, I have heard others say the same thing .. some one got there bus ticket paid, we only use card and phone to pay nowadays, there it was coins, no change..
We where there to see Military Tato and drink beer (Puffin Ale) and whiskey of course

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

Why is the primary radar track so elongated to the North?

The figure in the SHK report doesn't actually show how elongated the track is - whatever happened up there is off the edge of the frame.

This is quite speculative:

I wonder if that red track isn't actually two separate tracks from the radar that somebody has (quite sensibly) made the same colour for the purposes of the report because the aircraft changed direction so suddenly that the radar processor didn't recognise returns from before and after the turn as still coming from the same target. If that's the case then the shape of the red lines at the top of the page has more to do with the primary radar having lost track of what it was looking at than with what the aircraft was actually doing.

What makes me suspect this? If you look at the point that's plotted at about 12:07:15Z, the track appears to pass through it in a suspiciously straight line (while the blue track suggests that the aircraft actually wasn't flying in a straight line by that time. I'm wondering if the red line that comes in from the top of the page is actually a lead-in line that the computer has drawn to point into the first point of a new track (as an extension of the line between the first line and the second) to make it immediately obvious to the operator which way the traffic on that new track is travelling - and that there isn't actually any echo on the other end of it.

The story at the end of the first half of the track is clearly different - the kink in the track at the 12:06:53Z point suggests that there must be at least one more point somewhere off the edge of the picture. It would be interesting to see where that last point actually was - there is a risk that the radar simply kept looking further and further in that direction (looking in a wider circle every time) until it settled on a stray echo in the right place/time several scans later - potentially quite a long way downrange - and drew a line to that.

There is not much else up there.

Don't forget that this is Primary radar - it neither knows nor cares whether an echo comes from the top or the bottom edge of the beam - or even if successive echoes come from similar height.

A.

 

[RedSnake]

There is not much else up there

I was a little unclear there, I meant that there could not be so much up there at 4130 meters that the plane could have collided with ..

I am making a guess here that the radar is a radar system 870/871.

Then the primary radar points would be
12:06:13> 06:23> 06:33> 06:43> 06:53> 07:03> 07:13> 07:23> 07:33> 07:43
And 07:23 is missing.

According to the secondary radar, the plane was about 200/300 m higher up at 07:22, than at the hits before and after.
I do not know if the radar wasn't look at that level then because of it or didn't connect it?
Or if it chose the 3 hits instead, because they were more at the same height.

In any case, the military that did the evaluation, does not seem to have ruled out that they came from the plane.
The orange track possibly something from the aircraft they have written.

But it woud also mean that the primary radarhits at 06:21 and 06:46 is a little bit dodge.
And that the 3 hits at 12:06:53Z can not have come in when the plane was on 3000m because the plane was never near that height at any of those times.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Primary radar altitude is worked out via trigonometry and secondary from an encoder on the aircraft set at 1013hectopascals.

The transponder will be broadcasting ads-B also referenced to the GPS data. Which is what the internet flight radar will show.

That's about the limit of my knowledge on the subject

 

[RedSnake]

It is very confusing both the military(secundary) and the airport and flight24 gets the plane's GPS position sent from the plane's transponder when it is "pinged"
as I have understood it.
That is, from the plane's GPS system?
But they are all different when they are put out on a map?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein