Obama job plan includes increasing engineering graduates??? 21

[Fisch88]

Some good replies here, thank you to all for posting.

Another thought along these lines was some comment from Andrew Liveris (Dow Chemical CEO) regarding a shortage of engineers - specifically chemical engineers. After I stopped laughing and picked myself up off the floor, I poked around on the Dow employment web site. I really did not see anything on their site indicating a desperate need, I would have expected to see a bunch of open positions, postings on Monster, trade journal classifieds, something like "Chemical engineers . . . . we need YOU!" I did not see anything like this.

Then I later read that they wanted chemical engineers with experience in a very specific, narrow field. Then I was offended because they seemed to be saying we need chemical engineers, we want cheap new grads, specially trained at public or personal expense that are not available, and anybody with experience not in our very specific, narrow field, is unqualified. I am a P.E., 22 years experience, earned a Master's degree in engineering 2 years ago while working, in various jobs I have made insecticides, food, car batteries, lead oxide powder, semiconductors and flexible circuits, but I am not qualified for Dow???? BAH!

I think what they really want has been mentioned here already, low cost labor, and I think they will end up getting what they asked for. I just hope it does not lead to major accidents, and they will find out that costs are ultimately higher due to design errors and oversights.

 

[moltenmetal]

Dow shouldn't have trouble finding chemical engineers, even if their pre-recquisite is that they must have previously worked for Dow!

 

[satchmo]

Sounds like using tax dollars to increase the number of engineering graduates, and then using tax dollars to subsidize businesses so they can hire them. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[beej67]

Rofl.

If they valued engineering so much, they'da given the engineers a bailout instead of the banks.

Clearly what we need is more bankers and lawyers to drag their salaries down instead.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[lacajun]

I know a number of fresh engineering grads that are unemployed 3-4 years out of school. But I expect most politicians to be clueless liars and conspiring each day of their lives for re-election and the public to eat their fodder.

H1B visas should be eliminated for the duration of the recession and beyond. If you want to work in this country, citizenship should be the first requirement. I know foreigners who are working here while Americans are unemployed. That's wrong but I expect no politician to understand that point.

Engineers need to get involved in public policy making. That's a small part of a solution.

 

[rowingengineer]

sorry Lacajun,
but I fail to see how you can broadly brush across all the jobs and say that not having an American in the seat is wrong if there is one wanting it. shouldn't this be a experienced based situation with the best man winning?.

I would also think every other country in the world would just return fire by firing all the Americans working over seas. seems to small pond thinking.

How could you do anything so vicious? It was easy my dear, don't forget I spent two years as a building contractor. - Priscilla Presley & Ricardo Montalban

 

[moltenmetal]

rowingengineer and lacajun: at least the US has the H1B system, which has (at least in theory) a test for determining whether or not the labour need can be met in the local labour market before permitting the firm to reach outside your country to satisfy it. That test may be flawed, but at least it exists.

In Canada there is no such test for economic immigrants. Immigrants are given a certain number of points for a pre-arranged job, but they can obtain sufficient points to immigrate here purely for economic reasons, even if they have no pre-arranged job. That's a key problem with our system, and it has led to a great deal of unnecessary suffering here.

It stands to reason that when unemployment is high or the economy is in recession, economic immigration should be curtailed to allow the labour market to catch up. The much smaller number of refugees and asylum seekers or sponsored family members can stay the same or even be increased if there's a need for it due to some war or other disaster. Unfortunately, this no longer happens in Canada either. The numbers have remained the same or increased throughout the most recent recession.

I sincerely doubt you need to fear other countries turfing out all the American expats if you restrict H1B visas. What you need to fear, but probably can't do much about, is that very long border you have with a 3rd world country (in this case I'm not talking about Canada...).

 

[TED7]

Over here in the UK we have our European Union membership. That's completely screwed everyone in my home town. Although I'm yet to meet an engineer who has made use of the situation.

Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

 

[SnTMan]

lacajun, your view of politicians and mine coincide pertty closely

 

[mgtrp]

"In Canada there is no such test for economic immigrants."
Not quite accurate - see

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/employers/lmo-basics.asp

An LMO may also be required when going for residency, depending on the path taken to get residency.

 

[moltenmetal]

mgtrp: you are quite right- a star for providing the link. Some very recent and very positive changes have happened that I was unaware of!

The program you mentioned is for the Canadian equivalent of the US H1B visa, ie. if an employer wants to bring someone in from out of the country to fill a specific position. This program can be used to bring in people either as permanent residents or as temporary foreign workers. There is a labour market test (a "labour market opinion") required for consideration under this program, subject to the same kind of concerns mentioned by people in the US who are critical of that system- but at least the test exists in theory.

The system you mentioned, until very recently, existed in parallel to the general "skilled workers" program which allowed 100,000+ principal applicants to immigrate to Canada. The rules of that "skilled workers" program have changed as of July 1, 2011, such that only people in one of 29 NOC occupation classes are permitted to enter under that program as principal applicants. In each occupation class, only 500 applications will be processed each year. Architects are on that list of 28, but engineers are NOT currently included. That's a huge change for the better.

Engineers are still eligible to immigrate, including permanently, but only with a pre-arranged job offer.

 

[ewh]

As to comedians, I think our governments already have more than their quota thanks very much.

The problem lies in what kind of comedians they have... they need to get rid of the clowns and bring in more like the late George Carlin and Bill Hicks. Perhaps not as crude, but with the same attitudes.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[CastMetal]

As with any government program there will be some abuses, but that is not justification to dismantle it entirely. There seems to be a very negative outlook on H-1B visas on this site, when we, the engineering community, are some of its greatest benefactors. I has boosted innovation and helped make the U.S. the technological powerhouse of the late 20th century. Large amounts of the research done in the U.S. over the last 50 years has been done by foreign born scientists and engineers, a third of our nobel prizes, a third of our phds, all increasing our technological advantage in industry and elsewhere.

They are vital to keeping the U.S. on the leading edge of tech given our lackluster education system. While current economic problems have bolstered the argument that they take our jobs, they are not "our" jobs, it's a global economy like it or not. May the best man (or woman) for the job win.

http://www7.nationalacademies.org/o...of_Foreign_Scientists_and_Engineers_to_US.asp

http://www.kauffman.org/entrepreneurship/foreign-born-entrepreneurs.aspx

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

 

[KENAT]

CastMetal, I was very careful to say abuse of H1B, not call for an out right ban for some of the reasons you mention.

However, I work at a place that makes (or until recently made) extensive use of H1B visas and honestly, a lot of them smell of indentured servitude for jobs I find it very hard to believe we couldn't have found US based applicants for.

A number of them were interns that came here on a foreign exchange type program and then got offered jobs. I find it hard to believe there wasn't a newly graduated US student somewhere that could have been persuaded to work in the Santa Barbara for a competitive wage.

Oh, and at least some of them that they tried to get here aren't even all that impressive either.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[CastMetal]

My personal experience with H-1B is limited (haven't seen any engineering "sweatshops" but I believe you they are out there) and I acknowledge it is in need of reform just wanted to make sure its redeeming qualities were at least brought up.

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

 

[cranky108]

Why have a limit anyway?

If a company hires an engineer from another country, then fine. This makes the universities work harder to make there degree programs either better, or deleted.

 

[lacajun]

rowingengineer, I know some of the imports. They are no better than American talent. I know fresh US graduates that are brighter than imports and unable to find work. They've taken other jobs because student loans have to be repaid. I find that unacceptable.

The imports I know plan to return home, by and large. They've no desire to remain here and become US citizens.

I am not worried about parochial thinking or people accusing me of such. I'm worried about family members displaced in this downturn and friends, too. Plus myself....... It's been about three years for many of them. I am not too concerned about an import in the States short term beyond wanting them to return home so a fellow American can work and provide for their family and strengthen our country. After all, our future leaders are the young of today. They deserve our best.

If imports have no desire to remain and become citizens, why are we training them? We should be training our own young people for the benefit of their future and the USA.

I am a citizen of the United States of America. It's the way I think.

 

[moltenmetal]

I'm totally OK with immigration- even purely economic immigration- as long as there's a test to ensure that the need can't be filled out of the existing pool of unemployed people. It seems that we FINALLY have such a test in place here in Canada, after 20 years of allowing large numbers of people to immigrate for purely economic reasons WITHOUT any such test.

The "family class" (family members sponsored by previous waves of immigrants) and refugees and asylum seekers (the legit ones, not the ones playing our system)- these should be allowed in numbers moderated by circumstances- in the former case by the general unemployment rate, and in the latter case based on need.

Unfortunately, the game that's being played at present is "want" versus "need". They call this the "skills shortage". To these firms, nobody in the unemployed pool is "qualified" for the work they're offering because the firms aren't interested in training anyone to any extent- why should they? They haven't needed to for decades! What they want is a "flexible" labour pool- ie. one that will accept short contracts for no more than they'd pay a full time employee in salary- and the only way they can have that is to have way more job seekers than positions available. Preferably job seekers without other options, or who view Canada as a chance for a better life and even a really terrible job as a means to get there.

Because of this definition of "skilled" as "ready to fill the position of someone with 20+ years of experience we laid off last year", they only hire a few fresh grads. The other 2/3 of the fresh grads find something else to do for money and leave the profession before they've ever had a chance to enter it. That's a waste of "human capital", and it's a damned shame. Increasing engineering enrollments under those circumstances is idiotic.

What I'd like to see, and what I think would be the very best thing for the profession of engineering here, is an honest-to-goodness labour shortage. An actual shortage of labour, not this rubbish "skills shortage" that we apparently have right now. When whole classes of engineering grads are being recruited before they even graduate, THEN we can talk about raising enrollments.

 

[csd72]

Maybe they need more engineers to work as actuaries and risk managers for the banking industry.

 

[lacajun]

csd72, I remember when banks used to be very conservative. I think we need more engineers in government and banking across the spectrum. Ones that will stand up for right vs wrong and not be seduced by the money. Those exist, too, and I talked with one recently. He knew the debt was wrong but said nothing because he was making too much money and he didn't work in that segment anyway. But, he made a boatload of money and cashed out before the dung hit the fan.

moltenmetal, I agree with your points.