Obama job plan includes increasing engineering graduates??? 21

[josephv]

Hi moltenmetal,

We agree in some good points (I too question the need for a subsidy), but you keeping saying that the subsidy only applies to "foreign-trained professionals".

That is not the whole picture, since a Canadian company cannot hire just any "foreign-trained professionals" to qualify for the subsidy.

The programme is meant to assist immigrants who have lived in Canada at least 5 years (in other words it is someone who probably already has Canadian citizenship). Furthermore, this is a group of people who often are not working in their professions or not even working at all and could use some help (i.e. they have much higher unemployment rates than other groups).

It is not true to say that recent grads do not have programmes that help them. For example, companies that hire highly skilled personnel (e.g. an Engineering Masters student) can qualify for $50,000 in grants from the Yves Landry foundation.

http://www.yveslandryfoundation.com/article/48/aime_initiative___provincial.html

I know a recent grad that was offered a salary of $90,000 and the company told them that the Ives Landry grant was covering $50,000 of their salary. Is anyone complaining that the Yves Landry grants discriminate against non-Masters students?

Hope all is great with you,
Joe

 

[josephv]

PS
My mistake, the programme that helped the grad student was from the Ontario Centres of Excellence, and it covered $40,000 of his salary. Here is an article and a link:

http://www.businessinsider.com/hire-science-and-technology-graduates-2011-3

http://www.oce-ontario.org/pages/talent_fj.aspx

Furthermore, Canada has several wage subsidy programmes for Canadians from all walks of life:

http://www.canadabusiness.ca/eng/guide/1137/

 

[moltenmetal]

Joe, I appreciate your reasoned argument on this topic.

To clarify, the Yves Landry foundation is a PRIVATE foundation, and of course can do what it wants in distributing its scholarships- within the limits of the law (i.e. as long as they don't discriminate on some irrelevant criterion like religion, race etc.) There are many such programs targeting all sorts of specific types of students (including foreign students who may wish to remain in Canada after graduation I might add).

What we're talking about here is a PUBLIC tax credit program, funded by decreasing the general tax revenue to the province. So all citizens have a say on this, and I trust they will make their opinion known at the ballot box in October. In fact, this is a TINY program in terms of total money available for it- but it was deliberately calculated to polarize people into camps who can be branded as "friends of immigrants" and "enemies of immigrants". And unfortunately, it's working. Hopefully, people will see through the political smokescreen and think about the fundamental justice of the issue.

I know plenty of unemployed and under-employed Canadian educated engineers. I know plenty more who were never able to gain access to the profession after graduating, and hence left the profession despite their education and interest, entirely to find a way to make a living. Most have written off engineering as a bad deal (and many are richer for it), but some I'm sure would love a chance to come back and try their hand at what they were trained to do. Why on earth would they not deserve access to this program?

The reason professional immigrants are, as you correctly state, over-represented in the unemployment and under-employment statistics here, is that there was and is an inadequate REAL labour market need for their services at the numbers they came in. This is not because of some imagined cabal of racist, xenophobic employers- they were out-competed for a limited number of jobs. Their experience was discounted because it is partial: an engineer with 10 years experience gained in the local language and market is more valuable to most employers than one who has 10 similar years, all of which were gained outside the local market. That's a fact that is borne out, on average, in on-the-job performance- it is not arbitrary discrimination based on race or country of origin. A lack of local market experience represents a very real hire risk, no different than a candidate whose experience is insufficient in either quantity or relevance to the particular industry. Despite this fact, thousands of foreign-trained engineers find jobs and are licensed here yearly, and God bless them- they enrich Canada in many ways.

Unfortunately, a great many never made it. These folks were out-competed for a limited number of jobs by superior candidates as judged by the only people that matter in that judgment (i.e. employers). Some of these superior candidates were other immigrants, some of them were locally educated. That's life in a capitalist economy.

The oversupply too was as a result of bad public policy- the so-called "human capital model" of economic immigration. This wasn't the immigrants' fault, but it certainly wasn't just the immigrants who suffered as a result either!

Nobody here, native or foreign-born, is entitled to any kind of a job, much less a job in their preferred profession. And no government program should be targeted in a way which makes an arbitrary distinction between people for eligibility based solely on their country of origin- or their sex, orientation, colour, race, creed or religion etc.

 

[josephv]

Thanks, Moltenmetal, I appreciate your reasoned response and the points you have made.

As per my previous post (we probably posted at the same time and you haven't seen it yet), it was the Ontario Centres of Excellence (not the Yves Landry foundation) that provided the grant.

The Ontario Centres of Excellence program is made possible through the financial support of the province of Ontario. Furthermore, as per my previous post there are similar programs all over Canada that provide wage subsidies for new grads.

all the best,
Joe

 

[lacajun]

mauricestoker, Paul Revere and Wentworth Cheswell according to David Barton,

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=20990.

In my travels to Europe, I received mostly stellar help and interaction. Most were amazed to see a US citizen, which was humbling. I was mostly in smaller towns. I don't think we're the pinata for the rest of the world. If I gave that impression, I was wrong and apologize for the miscommunication.

I am aware of German disdain for anything French. I found it to be comical until he, a German, did not relent on the issue. At that point, it became disturbing. I ultimately wondered if he would have issues with my French and Jewish roots. I have German heritage, too. That's the issue with families that have been in the US for hundreds of years. We're mutts.

If memory serves, Jefferson did give credit to Europe for his architecture. But I've not consistently read any of his writings in over a decade and could be wrong.

In my readings of the Founders' writings, they wanted to be friends with all. Friends do borrow ideas from each other, do business with each other, etc.

Kenat, many US citizens, including our current President, refer to the US as a democracy. I know it is not. It is a Republic. Benjamin Franklin was bluntly pointed on that fact.

On Topic: I've always thought technology doesn't displace a need for people to work somehow and somewhere. Technology has been advancing for centuries and hasn't been "that" big a problem. The work we do may be different but it will still be work.

A guy on the news stated one problem with the USPS is that, like The Big Three in Detroit, they can't get rid of people due to agreements signed over the decades with their union.

FeX32, I've listened to a man with access to important folks in DC and many leaders, private and public, cannot see how what the US has created with large multinational food conglomerates is sustainable.

It is interesting that UK efforts to boost STEM enrollment hasn't worked.

We live in interesting times.

 

[KENAT]

Ah come on lacajun, the US has one of the best democracies money can buy;-).

I guess we'll get to see what el presidente has to say this evening.

I'd be lying if I said I thought it will be worth much, and my guess is even if he did come up with some good ideas congress would block them for one reason or another.

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What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[mauricestoker]

Lacajun,

I hope the book agrees with Sarah Palin, or it might have to be branded as revisionist.

I worked in Wuerzburg for a few years, had to do a lot of work with the FinanzBauAmt. The FBA had been sitting on about $60M in projects when it came my turn to deal with them. The city rabbi had the same last name as me, and the Director assumed right off that I was his son (we looked much the same as well, but I looked younger). I used the guilt trip to get evverything approved for over a year until my idiot boss corrected him. Back to gridlock. While I was there, I learned that the schools were teaching that President Hitler was a great president who was tricked into the war, and Germany would have conquered the world if not for the American interventionists. Revision of history is fun: Aztecs invented the vacation, dogs came from outer space.

Jefferson did not make a good impression in Italy. The doges refused to meet with him. I can't blame them, because yes, he did repeatedly take credit for other people's inventions. The writing desk he "invented" is a punk adaption of an earlier invention that can be seen in Padova. Yes, it is still credited as being his invention. I've never seen where he gave credit to Palladio for Montebello; Lo Rotonda actually looks much better with its setting. Not saying he was a megalomaniac and two-faced, but he used to cut parts of the Bible out he didn't agree with-I guess he felt it was his position to edit divine disclosure. The expansion of federal authority he took in the Lousiana Purchase was something he was against, until he was in office.

Gearguru,

If Chamberlain could have found his umbrella, then he could have gone to Nuernburg or Munich or Oberammergau, and done some more vacillating and placating. You need the umbrella to properly vacillate.

 

[lacajun]

Kenat, your humor entertains me. What money? All I see is debt and our "wealth" slipping away due to ignorant, empty suits in DC. I don't think Congress would block good, fiscally conservative ideas from Obama. People like me are interested in fiscal responsibility being returned to DC. I don't see how spending more of my tax dollars to boost engineering enrollments will help turn the economy around. I know fresh grads who are not working anywhere near engineering to repay student loans because they cannot find work as engineers.

If you sell a kid on something he may not really want, he'll end up leaving the profession sooner or later. I've worked with people who got engineering degrees because it was an excellent tool to get where they really wanted to go.

mauricestoker, what book? I missed something. Thomas Jefferson is not unlike any other person, i.e., he had his flaws, failures, and weaknesses. He attacked George Washington and John Adams viciously in very cowardly ways. That happens today, too.

As for Jefferson's Bible, here is an explanation from David Barton about that, and the Christian beliefs of other Founders, at

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=113:

[green]The reader, as do many others, claimed that Jefferson omitted all miraculous events of Jesus from his “Bible.” Rarely do those who make this claim let Jefferson speak for himself. Jefferson's own words explain that his intent for that book was not for it to be a “Bible,” but rather for it to be a primer for the Indians on the teachings of Christ (which is why Jefferson titled that work, “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth”). What Jefferson did was to take the “red letter” portions of the New Testament and publish these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to Christian morality. And as President of the United States, Jefferson signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he provided—at the government's expense—Christian missionaries to the Indians. In fact, Jefferson himself declared, “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” While many might question this claim, the fact remains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist.[/green]

This is one reason I've tried to rely on what the Founders wrote and what is really in the Bible to not be misled or be misleading. If people read the original writings, we may not have a President willing to increase engineering enrollments and subsidize his "jobs" effort in the name of stimulating the economy. It will be about half a generation before Obama's Engineers will truly be influencing the economy in a meaningful and positive way. This is akin to his "shovel ready" jobs stimulus.

That's the way I see the world and adding new engineering graduates to the workforce. If that will stimulate the economy, why not increase the H1B visas?

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[KENAT]

What money - seriously? The money that if our government were a sporting event/team (or similar) would buy the various sponsorship logo's they'd be wearing.

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[KENAT]

Oh, and if they thought it might help them and/or their party get elected next time, or perhaps just keep their sponsors campaign contributors happy, of course they'd block anything.

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[lacajun]

Kenat, I was not being serious with "what money." I didn't adequately convey that. Sorry! But seriously, our debt does bother me.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[TheTick]

Throwing "stimulus money" at the economy only illustrates that the president is acting in a manner that shows he does not recognize the nature or depth of the current crisis.

 

[KENAT]

Maybe it's perspective. I certainly think the debt is an issue and there are areas that could & should be cut, and perhaps even areas where revenue should be at least 'changed' if not arbitrarily increased.

However, I probably spend more time worrying about my families loss of income thanks directly to cuts in government spending, and in a way that causes other long term problems to save a short term buck.

However, getting a ways of topic, sorry.

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[Fisch88]

This has been a great discussion, lots of ideas and posts. Thanks to all for keeping the discussion going.

I did listen to Obama tonight, and he mentioned increasing engineering graduates by 10,000 per year as part of his jobs act. I have been thinkng a lot about my own role within my company. It seems strange, we have been laying off people overall, but our R&D department is actively recruiting. We have recently hired two brand new ChemE's. I don't believe this was subsidized in any way. The project I have been working on is not too technically complex, but I need designers, controls techs, maybe a project manager, a drafter, manufacturing support, financing, etc, for making process improvements that are important to lower our costs and help ensure long term viability of the company. There are a number of us "leaders" that are responsible for driving these improvements on a variety of projects.

So this has lead me to consider our role as engineers - to drive innovations, continuous improvements and in the process create jobs and ensure the long term success of our companies. I think this is what the Prez was thinking when he states that he wants more of us in the labor pool.

I'm not convinced that we need to increase engineering graduates to obtain this objective. Other ideas seem OK - allow more foreign engineers in to help drive innovation, tax credits for new hires, maybe listen to Bob Lutz, fire all of the MBA's and let engineers run the engineering and R&D departments?

We need to remove institutional barriers within organizations. More engineers banging their heads against an accouting and finance wall will not help. We need to be allowed, encouraged and supported to do our engineering jobs. Incentives for R&D, innovation, basic research seem like the best remedy for long term success. Also increasing SBIR/STTR funding will help small business - but few people seem aware of this.

 

[cranky108]

Sounds more like we need better economic education, and a better discussion of other economic theories. The current theory of spend, spend, spend just isen't working. Big goverment isen't going to take us to any nervana, unless you like central planning. And the issue is inefficent distribution of resources.

The presedent wasen't serious about jobs, he is making a political issue that he knows won't pass congress. It's a reelection ploy, pure and simple (nonsence).

 

[SnTMan]

cranky108, I beleive that to whatever extent the primary activity of government is to provide for re-election / re-appointment of its' current members, that government is not legitimate and should be disbanded.

Regards,

Mike

 

[cranky108]

Should we start with throwing postal workers off the docks?

OOPs, I forgot they have guns.

 

[TheTick]

Consider the US unemployed nw make up over 10% of the electorate. Quite the voting bloc ripe for pandering.

 

[lacajun]

Fisch88, what institutional barriers do you suggest removing?

I'm unsure what this Prez thinks about engineers. As a voting block, engineers are conservative and large numbers didn't support his campaign according to the stats I reviewed. I am sure his campaign manager is aware of this so Obama is probably aware of it, too.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[lacajun]

cranky108, whose view of economics would you teach? Keynes? Friedman? Hayek?

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC