Obama job plan includes increasing engineering graduates??? 21

[rowingengineer]

lacajun,
Thus far in my career I have found a random distribution of peoples abilities, I am yet to see any correlations to place of birth. I find it has more to do with drive/natural talent and the drive/talent can be for many reasons.

How could you do anything so vicious? It was easy my dear, don't forget I spent two years as a building contractor. - Priscilla Presley & Ricardo Montalban

 

[lacajun]

rowingengineer, I studied statistics at the graduate level so I am well aware of the distribution of IQ and all that jazz. I have met some imports here that are very bright and some not so bright. I can't comment on how the not so bright arrived in the US because I am not part of that process nor have I read anything about it.

The USA is my primary concern. I have family members and friends who are digging exceptionally deep to stay afloat in this recession. I have helped some of them with my time and money for about 2 years now. It's not been easy for me either because I've been more unemployed over the last 2.5 years than employed. That means I am digging deep, too. So, why would I care about any other country and their citizens coming to the USA to work, when we need to be working in our chosen fields and continuing to progress?

I am not being sarcastic or cold but very realistic. Some are looking at having everything they've worked for the last 30+ years wiped out because of this recession. I may be amongst them. Those are sobering thoughts and positions to view the rest of your life with and from. It stinks, when you've been responsible, worked hard, lived well within your means, and saved. I don't even own a TV.

Further, I met two Brits who are working here, who criticized the USA openly and vehemently every chance they got. Their two beefs with us: 1) We didn't enter WWII quickly enough, and 2) We are energy hogs and we should be solving China's problems with poverty and energy.

Needless to say, since my dad and uncles served in WWII, their rants about our late entry into that war didn't impress me favorably. One uncle took a bullet that sent him home. I've heard other imports talk disparagingly about the USA and its citizens as being pretty darn stupid, greedy, unethical, etc. That does not make points with me either. If people don't like it here, they are free to leave. When I've been abroad, I didn't complain about anything. People are different and have different ways of doing things. So what? That's life and I enjoy life.

When I went to Paris, the French treated me like a second class citizen because I don't know French. Didn't bother me one bit. I was just glad to be there!

I love people but some can be a real challenge and require a lot of patience. Usually, they're worth it.

 

[SomptingGuy]

lacajun,

I have been one of those Brits in a former life. Ask them why they have chosen to desert their home and come to live in the "plastic" USA. When I finally left the USA, I'd taught a few people about proper beer, proper spelling and a bit of geography.

When I've perfected my time machine, I'll wind it back to '95 and do it all over again. Living in someone else's country is a mind opener.

You are energy hogs.

WW2 was a bit of a problem. But then again, Brit always bang on about the World Cup (footie game, when we apparently beat the hun in the 60's)

- Steve

 

[csd72]

lacajun,

You guys are energy hogs and the USA only entered world war 2 when Pearl Harbour made it 'personal'. Sorry to hear about your relatives but plenty of people died before the US got involved.

But I really think that if people choose to live in a country they should accept it 'warts and all' and not continually critisize it. Though perhaps the reason why foreigners are so critical of the US is because you Americans are not critical enough yourselves (you critisize the individuals but not the country).

 

[rowingengineer]

lacajun,
While I can understand your thinking it doesn't cover the situation these days. Truth is that this is a global economy, with a global work force. While you may have a few low level positions being given to imports, you will only make more companies move offshore by reducing the availability of a work force, This is forgetting that a lot of companies are foreign owned and generally they have foreign directors and upper management. There is no magical fix for the situation.

How could you do anything so vicious? It was easy my dear, don't forget I spent two years as a building contractor. - Priscilla Presley & Ricardo Montalban

 

[CRG]

I am not in favor of central planning. As such, I am not in favor of any federal government sponsored program to subsidize any facet of our education system. Look what happened to the cost of education since the federal government has been significantly involved in education. From 1986 to the present, tuition has increased 450% while the overall consumer prices have increased about 100%. If you do a little research regarding the costs, financial aid, and the regulatory environment of universities, you will see the problem.

 

[CastMetal]

CRG,

While costs of university have increased dramatically it is not necessarily just a "problem". It was a conscious decision made that higher education should be made more accessible. That accessibility in the form of Pell Grants and larger/easier student loans has unintended but not unforeseen consequences. Many Universities have acceptance rates around 60%, raising tuition levels will not significantly effect enrollment numbers and gives them little reason to maintain lower tuition. They will always want higher tuition for more programs, buildings, and bigger budgets. While I'm sure there are many other factors to be considered the biggest one in my view is accessibility=money if you want to change that you will need government intervention.

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

 

[CRG]

CastMetal,before the government became involved with grants and loan subsidizes, desire = accessibility. My mother worked her way through Columbia University working as a waitress in the mid 1930s. No government subsidized loans, no family support, no Pell Grants, etc. What she had was desire and personal responsibility. Now we have almost the opposite and a decline in the graduation rate. Is this value?

Furthermore, this government intervention has created the hidden tax that sets the cost of higher education. Would it be acceptable for any other business to base the cost of service on a relative's assets? Picture this, you are a independent 18 years old and go to the Ford dealership to buy a car only to find that the sticker prices are marked up 50% more than they should be. They ask to see your parents financial records such that the dealership can determine how much of a discount you are entitled to. Is this equal access or just a unjust tax where your rate is based on a relative's income/assets?

CastMetal, your comment "accessibility=money if you want to change that you will need government intervention" is based on the misconception that the problem wasn't created by the government involvement to start with. Stop the federal subsidizes and the cost of education will drop where those that have the desire can afford to purchase the service. Currently, the typical program is to enslave those who go to school with student loans such that the graduates are really indentured servants.

 

[CastMetal]

I don't dispute some of what you say, 35% dropout is appalling, it is a hidden tax, it is a government created issue, and yes the loans students are saddled with are nearly unbearable for those in fields that don't earn top dollar (journalism, non-profits, education).

However enrollment is up to over 70% of highschool grads in recent years, (from 50% in the 80's). The money isn't disappearing it is reinvested into the campuses, research, professors, etc. It is not the most desirable situation to be sure but it was done intentionally to improve enrollment rates. In this the government succeeded.

Taking the government out of the picture is not a cure all, prices may fall but so will enrollment, particularly among lower income families. Then many will be bemoaning the unfair system that favors the rich and contributes to america's lagging education system. Some situations do call for further regulation to mitigate unintended consequences.

Before you get all up in arms, IMHO vocational/tech/community schools are underutilized and much more reasonable for the majority of people looking at higher education with no clear goals for at least the first two years. Universities would provide superior "value" as you put it, if they stopped dumping everyone with no clear major into liberal arts or business degree programs that the labor market has no need for. Unfortunately convincing people that less (Community College) may be more (Return On Investment) is a long road where the path to success is viewed as going through college.



Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

 

[mauricestoker]

CSD72,

I thought the British only got involved in WWII because Neville Chamberlain misplaced his umbrella.

 

[cranky108]

Apperently high school economics isen't recieved very well. Or the teaching isen't very good.

Or just maybe they are teaching bogus theorys.

In a recent edition of Forbes, they were showing universities in other countries where they teach classes in English, and are less expencive than in the US.

But does it matter much, as on-line universities should start taking away from brick and mortor schools.

 

[moltenmetal]

OK, my hope was short-lived. Whereas the Canadian federal government has finally restricted economic immigration without a labour market "means" test of some sort, the Ontario Liberal party is now campaigning for re-election with a policy to offer $10,000 to companies who give a foreign-trained professional their first job in Canada. This is rapidly becoming a wedge issue between parties, with people who are against this blatantly discriminatory policy being branded anti-immigratn xenophobes.

Sadly, it's to a great extent the children of the last generation of immigrants who will be competing against this proposed subsidy for the few entry-level jobs that remain. $10,000 is about 20% of the first year's salary of an entry-level engineering grad here- and there will be no such matching subidy for the fresh grads. Such are the politics of a nation of immigrants and their children...

 

[josephv]

Hi Moltenmetal,

Hope all is great. I share several concerns with the programme you mention. However, I think there are some details worth mentioning regarding this programme. Here is a portion of the press release:

"The Ontario Liberal plan contains a commitment to offer businesses a tax credit, worth up to $10,000 to subsidize training costs for skilled newcomers."

"Skilled newcomers often need on-the-job experience in order to qualify for the Ontario certification in their field of expertise."

Frankly, I don't see how this programme is a "blatantly discriminatory policy" when you consider new grads in Ontario already benefit or benefitted from a heavily subsidized education starting in kindergarten all the way to post-secondary, continuing education, adult career retraining and often have the certification/training that many new immigrants don't have. In comparison to get some perspective the tax credit is really a drop in the bucket. Furthermore, the $10,000 is not a blank cheque it's for the Canadian employer to invest in training.

Personally, I believe there probably are better options for reducing unemployment than this particular programme. However, like many issues the details are important and should be discussed.

 

[lacajun]

One economist believes Obama is going to announce another stimulus as his jobs plan.

I think a country should invest in its own young people first. I've seen companies say they will train but not train.

CRG, I am with you. A couple of years ago, I listened to Arne Duncan tell a group of youngsters that the Dept. of Education had not done too good for about 25 - 30 years. The man didn't blush at all. That's about as long as it has been in existence but he didn't point that out. No one brought that point up. It's a failing department and US international test scores are proof. Those scores don't stop them from pouring more money into it.

I know the US is an energy hog. We've had cheap energy most of my life and I've enjoyed it. The older I get the more I enjoy it.

I know the USA isn't perfect. But, as "plastic" as it is and as bad as others think it is, I love and accept my country warts and all. I am a firm believer in our Constitution and its exceptional status in world history. There are many things I would change, given an opportunity, which I am trying to do in my own little sphere of influence via local politics. Some of the things I would do would not popular internationally but I wouldn't care. Our problems are pretty darn deep right now so we need to focus on things at home first. That is common sense to me.

A man who believes he can "solve" another family's problems while his own family's problems are ignored by him is an extremely codependent man. The way I think, that can be extrapolated to all kinds of entities, beyond the individual, such as nations. The USA, in my opinion, is codependent and we need to recognize it and stop that behavior.

I've read a couple of books bashing the USA. Are their accusations true? I don't know. I do know people lie thus a lot of what people publish is not worthy of the paper it's printed on. I would say The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a prime example of my belief. I've experienced too many people's lies to think people are incapable of that bad behavior. It made God's Big Ten List.

WWI was to be the war to end all wars, if memory serves. It obviously wasn't and we've been in conflicts ever since. Those are costly. If you don't think so, read Robert Higgs or listen to him on youtube. Our Congress has not voted on whether to enter a war in many instances, which is a dereliction of their duty to our Constitution. I want them to have skin in the game rather than an armchair quarterback position during replays. They are cowards for abdicating their own Constitutional responsibilities. In my opinion, they should either put up or shut up in a lot of cases.

I am more of an isolationist like our Founders. I think people ought to settle their own problems and especially those problems that are squabbles with another nation. Some of my neighbors don't get along but it's none of my business to intervene, meddle, mend fences, or take sides. I prefer to be friends with all of them. Every tub has to sit on its own bottom.

 

[gearguru]

Amen, lacajun.
I apologize for talking off topic, but our English friends forgot that their country could take care of Hitler's ambitions in 1938 (with the help of equally heroical French at that time), and not giving him the Central Europe as a gift for (temporary) not moving to the West. I mean the treaty of Munich. Poland must be very grateful to Great Britain too.
As far as I know the USA started to feed Great Britain with all kind of supplies long before the Pearl Harbor.

 

[KENAT]

Well of course if the USA hadn't picked up its ball and gone home at the end of the first go round then there may not have been a Nazi Germany in the first place.

However, we can second guess history and play what if's all day long.

Most if not all countries have their faults, if coming to a country means you have to accept all the propaganda spouted about it without question, then it's a pretty sad state of affairs. After all several founding fathers and early presidents weren't 'natural born'.

Brits tend to 'poke the bear' a little on the issue of turning up late and taking all the glory, over fed, over paid, over sexed and over here etc..

Some US Americans for their part often seem to think they settled the matter single handed.

I don't think this is particularly relevant to the OP, and is at risk of reinforcing a number of stereotypes about respective nationalities, I mean, do you want me to go into how a previous US boss didn't even know Britain was a democracy...?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[FeX32]

I think this article is related to the original topic

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/index.html?npt=NP1

Fe

 

[Debaser]

Finally someone calls the employers out on their never-ending mantra of 'no skilled workers'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14823042

 

[moltenmetal]

josephv: if the foreign-trained professionals are actually needed in the economy (as professionals), no subsidy should be needed to integrate them into it. Thousands make that transition successfully every year: as evidence, we grant more licenses in Ontario to foreign-educated engineers than we do to Canadian-educated engineers, and have done so for many years. The trouble is, thousands MORE than the number needed in the labour market still come into it every year, both as immigrants and as fresh grads. We'll see if the labour market means test applied to the "skilled worker" category has a useful impact- there's hope that it will.

The program claims to subsidize "training costs", but since training will by necessity be on-the-job (i.e. the job IS the training), it amounts to a simple tax credit subsidy- of use only to firms that are profitable of course.

The subsidy IS blatantly discriminatory, because it doesn't apply to all professional candidates who need job experience to succeed in the workforce or get their licenses to practice. It applies only to foreign-trained professionals, not to native-born professionals whose experience isn't 100% what the current marketplace is looking for, or to fresh grads looking for their 1st job.

As to the subsidies for education etc., those are benefits of citizenship. We've had universal publicly funded education here since the 1800s. These benefits apply to any immigrant's children regardless what sort of job they take here- they apply even to the children of illegal immigrants. In fact, these benefits also apply to any landed immigrant who seeks education here. Landed immigrants don't pay the "foreign student" tuition unless I'm mistaken.

 

[mauricestoker]

Lacajun,

That's an interesting take on American history and the founders. Did Paul Revere really ride out to warn the British that the Americans are coming? Was Thomas Jefferson an isolationist? Judging by the large amount of work he plagiarized from Italy, I think not. I enjoyed driving through Vicenza every day and seeing Lo Rotondo, which Palladio designed, Jeffereson copied, and claimed as his own architecture. Italians were proud, but somewhat confused, as to why the US put Lo Rotondo on the nickel. As for a "war to end all wars" the fighting went on in Turkey, as well as in Russia, to include American involvement.

Having traveled, including in the UK, I'm proud to live in a country where "spotted dick" is not something you put in your mouth. I've lived in Europe twice, and if you think other countries bash the US, the squabbles that went on between the Germans and the French, the Italians and Germans, and every other country having over 500 years of historic conflicts were sometimes hilarious. Oktoberfest always had beer tents which would line up French flags on front tables, draw in the French tourists, then refuse to serve them. Worked year after year. Going to see the 4th of July parades in Prague, or General Patton's birthday in Luxemburg, or JFK celebration in Wuerzburg, etc, it's easy to see that the US is not the pinata for the world, though the media often seeems to provide this impression. I learned quite bit of German by watching Hogan's Heroes-it's even better in German. If the US is plastic, it seems most of the world likes plastic.

For the orignal OP, to paraphrase Ronald Reagan, during the severe recession of the early 80's, if people don't like where they are living, they can vote with their feet. I was a recent grad then, so to quote another great American, Frank Zappa, I wound up working at the gas station, pumping the gas every night. Perhaps there is a better alternative now: buy a took, move to Canada, and get $10,000 worth of OJT. To quote one more great American, Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"