Piper Lance crash in Nashville

[Sym P. le]

cp24.com - Five Canadians dead after small plane from Ontario crashes near Nashville

Two things, the flight profile seems odd given a spike in speed approximately 15 minutes before the crash (12 minutes before passing over the field). It's as though the engine went full throttle during the descent and then remarkably corrected to nominal. Also, another situation that struck close to home when a family was lost to pilot error, losing power and crashing after passing over the field, unable to cue up the runway on the first pass and trying to double back. Are pilots just not ready/prepared for out of ordinary approaches in adverse circumstances? I don't want to cast aspersions. I have flown but it's been too long to contemplate what would be going through ones mind when the pressure is on to stick a landing and the engine is unreliable.

Flightaware.com

 

[LittleInch]

That velocity spike is just an anomaly in the data stream. There is no way a Piper could do 500mph without the wings falling off.

He has just missed the airfield on his right hand side but hasn't started the turn back before running out of height.

The report says the engine died. A 45 year old aircraft.

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[Alistair_Heaton]

I think one of the Kennedys died in one of them.

The turbo 6 cylinder variable pitch prop retractable under carriage light aircraft are called doctor killers for a reason.

Never flown one, I did my commercial training and test in a twin. But the people I know that did said the forced landing was extremely easy to mess up. Which is the reason why I just paid 500 more and did it in the twin.

 

[LittleInch]

"Ontario" is a bit vague, but from Toronto it's about 1250km.

Range is quoted as 1750km.

Mistake on fuel has to be first check. But small aircraft crashes are often very hard to get good information on.

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[MintJulep]

saw an airplane essentially crash out of the sky, fall out of the sky, and hit the ground at around a 45 degree angle

That, plus the trace in the first post makes me think stall-spin.

Looks like he was about 1,500 feet AGL at 3 miles out. That needs a 10:1 glide ratio. He might have made it if he kept the nose down and held best glide speed.

He certainly could have gotten to one of the farm fields on the West side of the river for a forced landing.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I seem to remember there is a load of stuff about getting the gear down and flap out with battery power left.

They have a fairly steep glide path.

It will likely be trying to stretch the glide and stalling.

The art of slide slip to land has gone out of fashion. I agree sticky the nose down with prop spinning then flare the energy off putting the flap out

 

[phamENG]

Running out of fuel seems plausible. I don't know anything about a Piper Lance, but when I was flying Cessna 172s, I had a weight and balance issue trying to carry 3 passengers. The ground crew gave me full tanks when I requested reduced fuel. (Thankfully I caught it.) If they were running on reduced fuel to carry two adults, three children, and undoubtedly some amount of baggage, they may have done the math wrong.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

here is the POH

https://aerowoodaviation.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/N9796C-Piper-Lance-POH-Sections-1-4.pdf

https://aerowoodaviation.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/N9796C-Piper-Lance-POH-Section-5.pdf

 

[phamENG]

Looks like there's not much need to reduce fuel then. About 1000lbs of payload capacity once you account for usable fuel. Even with full bags (200lbs), 800lbs should be enough for two adults and 3 kids - and if you can fit three kids across that backseat they're probably light enough.

I also see in the news report where they said there was a 30ft fireball. probably wouldn't happen if the tanks were empty...

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There was always issues with that type of plane of the Engine life by date, in the UK/Europe they rarely got to the hourly life limit, it was always the 15 years or what ever it was life span.

So corrosion issues normally dictated when they came out for overhaul.

Those big turbo's had a habit of throwing a pot or the turbo going and chucking all the oil out.

They have a really long front cowling as well which restricts your forward view at best glide pitch.

 

[Sym P. le]

Thanks for the responses. I agree with Littleinch that the spike is likely an anomaly. I don't recall seeing anomalies with other tracking data over the years but should have been able to figure that out.

This crash occurred just after dark and with the overlay, it can be seen that options were limited if not hopeless for an unfamiliar pilot. It would be difficult to discern the extent of the fields below and at 7:40 p.m., there would be plenty of headlights on the roads discouraging a road landing. From the data and news reports, the engine quit just after the pilot crossed the field, a very inopportune time to make adjustments. An extended glide would not seem friendly either so the freeway below may have been his only hope.

Google Maps

I'm surprised the tracking is so far off the crash location.

 

[LittleInch]

Looks like there was more than one fuel tank and if one runs dry it takes a while to restart the engine.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They all have more than one that big. You swap regularly so one wing doesn't get heavier than the other.

And if the engine is spinning it doesn't take very long for them to suck the fuel from the other tank and fire up again.

I suspect though it wasn't fuel starvation.

The choosing the plan is vastly more complicated at night.

 

[LittleInch]

That looks like a pretty vicious turn though. The spin idea is sounding quite likely here. Especially with no power.
Bits I heard from ATC the pilot sounded very calm.

Was he trying to do a left hand circuit to land on runway 02?

The debris field is very small - either stalled and pancake landed or went in at a big angle. Not much left to sift through unfortunately.

This has a long interview with the NTSB rep

https://fox17.com/news/local/single...olice-fire-on-scene-davidson-county-tennessee

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its not if you know what your doing. But if you haven't done it before or not been shown it its not something you would spontaneously think of.

I got shown it by my instructor for my CFI course. Who was a hairy arsed RAF pilot retired. And some of the stuff he showed me and made me do was utterly terrifying.

The turn helps you get rid of energy.

There can be other reasons for the spin. Those big engines when they seize can throw the plane extremely aggressively.

 

[3DDave]

Many times pilots have pulled up hard to try to extend the glide and stalled the plane doing so. The harder they pull the faster the descent, so they pull harder yet.

“I saw an airplane essentially crash out of the sky, fall out of the sky, and hit the ground at around a 45 degree angle,” Wiser said in a phone interview.

The angle is often misreported, but I would not expect it to be any less steep than the report. A 45 degree angle fits with a stall. If the viewer is in line the angle is often reported as straight down regardless of the actual angle.

 

[Sym P. le]

CBC is drawing a direct link to an inexperienced pilot, i.e. a beneficial owner of the plane received his private pilot license less than two years ago.

 

[LittleInch]

Hence the reason for the stick pusher in some aircraft.

The crash scene looks very much like a near vertical stall with very little forward velocity.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Sym P. le]

A stall doesn't arrest forward velocity, it merely retards it as gravity accelerates the downward component, hence the transition to a rapid descent. The aircraft can assume any number of orientations about its c.g. during that descent as the control and lift elements gyrate from uneven airflow over their surfaces. The trajectory however is little different than a baseball returning to earth.

Anyone with a sac of money can purchase an aircraft. Not anyone with an aircraft has the patience to develop a full skillset complete with accumin, muscle memory, flight management and contingency planning. Add complicating factors such as night flying or instrument conditions and the time investment requirements grow accordingly.

Perhaps graduated liscensing is required but that won't stop pilot error. As usual, more info will rise to the surface on this event.

 

[3DDave]

At full stall the airplane will transition to become a lawn dart as the speed is bled off from drag until it gains enough speed to transition back to level flight, unless the Earth interrupts that transition.

Unless they transition to a spiral spin, they tend to keep some forward speed, such as that on flight AF447 which pilots managed to reduce forward speed to around 124 mph with a downward speed of 123 mph but if they have enough control authority - lawn dart.