Return of Shop Drawings/Submittals

[lkjh345]

Out of curiosity, for those that still red line shop drawings by hand, how many copies of the submittal do you typically send back to the architect or contractor?

In the 'old' days, it was fairly typical in my area of the country (Nebraska, USA) for the structural engineer to recieve two copies of say structural steel shop drawings. One blue-line copy and one sepia (sp?) copy. Only the sepia copy was returned to the architect, and either they or the contractor made copies of this for anyone who wanted or needed them.

This system evolved (around here) into the structural engineer receiving several copies of the drawings and the engineer was expected to copy his comments onto several copies to send back to the architect. Thus turning the structural engineer (or his/her intern )into a medieval scribe copying comments onto each copy instead of using a copy machine to accomplish the same thing.

Under this system, I typically would return no more than 3 copies of a sumbittal to the architect. One copy of the architect, one copy for the General Contractor, and one copy for the fabricator or subcontractor doing this piece of the work.

In the last year I have recived requests on a few projects (demands really) to provide 5 or 6 copies of submittals back to the architect. The architects now claim that the owner(s) want copies, and the general contractor needs multiple copies, etc. (Personally, I really don't believe this.)

On some submittals, it is only a matter of a few minutes to copy my comments over, and send things on their way. But on large buildings, the shop drawings can be very extensive, and if there are a lot of comments on them, making extra copies involves considerable time and expense on our part to provide.

I am curious as to what other Structural Engineers are doing in this area.

- Do you copy your comments over by hand to mutliple copies? Or do you only send one 'reproducible' set back to the architect?

- If you need to provide mutliple copies back to the architect, how many copies do you typically send? Do you copy the commetns by hand, or send a copy to a print shop and make copies that way, at your expense?

 

[SperlingPE]

We have added verbage in the spec's or proposals concerning shop drawings/submittals that deals with how they should be submitted. Our preferred method is to return one red lined copy to the contractor and the contractor makes copies for anyone requiring a copy. Second choice is we red line two copies; one is filed and one is used to make copies. The copies are charged to the contractor.

 

[Taro]

I have noticed the same trend. This should be addressed in your contract with your client. If they wish to pay you your standard hourly billing rate for hand-copying comments, then that's their choice.

 

[shin25]

Personally I think, sometimes it is really difficult to read comments if they are in black. This is because black does not stand out in the black back ground of the shop drawings.

From this point of view, I can see the rationality behind the architect asking for more number of originals.

I suggest that you use a color copier to make additional copies from your original check print. This way your comments in red will stand out, which may satisfy the architect.

 

[Lion06]

We are currently trying to come up with a way to deal with this. We typically receive 4-5 sets and are expected to send back 3-4 sets. This is very burdensome, especially when there are over 1200 pieces which have red marks all over them. We are talking to our clients (architects) to make sure we only need to send back 1 set, that way the intern only needs to transfer one set after we mark them up.

 

[JKStruct]

Our office has seen both. Our specs say to submit one set of reproducibles and one set of prints.... so one for us and one back to the architect. Several people do not follow our spec and send 4 copies or so.

Copying the notes is a pain. I try to find someone else to do it for me. I do see the point Shin25 made. I'd prefer to read a comment in red. But I think a color copier is a better alternative and it should be the contractor's responsibility, and not the person I find to it for me. Ha.

 

[JedClampett]

We're trying something new. We have the shop drawings scanned and send a CD with the pdf's on it as the return submittal. Whomever wants a hard copy can print their own or just look at it on the screen. We keep the original, I think.
The cost of scanning a full size drawing in color is only about $3.00 if you don't need photo quality scans. Much cheaper than any other type of reproduction.

 

[archeng59]

We generally receive 5 or 6 copies and transfer our redlines to each set. I agree, it's aggravating and time consuming to do the transfers and back-check to make sure everything was transferred. But it's my experience, that's the best way to ensure the contractor sees the redlines. When copies of the redlines sheets were made, the contractors sometimes missed the mark ups that were in black on their copies.

During the last year or so, we've started using a local reproduction company to create color photocopies of the redlined sheets. The photocopies are the same size as the submittal sheets and are in red. Works good so far, although we've had to pay for the copies. The copies are less expensive than the manpower needed to transfer the marks.

 

[HgTX]

We used to require between 7 and 9 copies, depending on how many interested parties were involved. Then we went to electronic submittal. (Cue choir of angels.)

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[shin25]

Currently, I have been involved in a big segmental bridge project. There are about 2000 pages of shop drawings for superstructure alone. It is still working out fine because all the drawing transfer happens electronically.

 

[jike]

Years ago, we received 6 copies and marked up each one. We wised up and changed our spec to require only two, one for doodling and one for the markups. We now scan it and send it back electronically. Everyone sees the same marks.

We use a thick marker that shows up very clear on the scan. You cannot miss the redmarks!

 

[civilperson]

After writing the notes, comments, corrections and stamping the individual sheets: Either scan and send as PDF, or forward to Kinko for multiple color copies, (bill marked up 15% and sent to client).

 

[lkjh345]

Thank you all for your input.

The idea to write into the contract how many copies go back, and the price to produce additional sets beyond that is a good idea, as is the idea of scanning the set and sending back a CD of PDF's and letting anyone who wants a copy print their own. Our company doesn't have a scanner that big, but sending them out to a copy center would work for that.

Definately ideas to consider to save time and money.

Thanks.

 

[JLNJ]

We are progessing to all-electronic, which is a good thing. Everybody gets a copy of the same marks. We don't do color yet but hopefully will soon. The archive storage on our end is all electronic which means we eventually need to scan them anyway.

The thing I always worry about when having someone else copy marks is that if they miss something it could be very expensive to fix. I'd hate to tell a client that MY copy has it marked correctly but we missed it when an intern transferred the marks on THEIR copy. Ouch.

I don't know the legals regarding changes on shop drawings (if they are binding to the contract) but I do know they can be critical to the way things go together in the field!

 

[msquared48]

We mark up one original set, make the prints required, save the original for our files, and shop stamp all the sets, to include the original.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[JKW05]

To address shin25's earlier comment about mark-ups not "standing out" on reproduced drawings, I usually use a thick "Sharpie" marker and often draw a cloud around my review comments.

 

[Gumpmaster]

One easy way to facilitate scanning in of markups is to require all shop drawings to be on 11"x17" paper or smaller. Most fabricators haven't had a problem meeting this requirement. It takes up a lot less space on the desk too.

 

[lkjh345]

Gumpmaster:

I would love it if I could get the fabricators to submit on 11x17 sheets. So much easier to work with.

Do you require this in your specs? Do contractors or fabricators object?

On a side note: The local Vulcraft plant submits steel deck and joist drawings on 'F' size sheets (36" x 48"). The things don't even fit on my drafting table! Been a source of annoyance to me for years.

 

[shin25]

I love to see drawings on 11X17" paper. But, one problem is, if the drawings carry too much information the font size tends to get smaller. This makes drawings hard to read. One way to solve it is to put less information on a page, but, this means more pages of drawings to review. But, I still think that 11X17" is the lesser of the two evils.

 

[samdamon]

Have done several recent spec ofc buildings where the stl detailer supplied tabloid (11x17) piece sheets, generally one piece to a sheet. It created a lot of work stamping, dating and marking up. I much prefer that the detailer provide 8 or 10 pieces per D or E size sheet as was the norm years ago. What with Tekla software etc the smaller piece sheet size is getting to be more common.